Home Nations Netball: Coaches, Players and the Rise of International Competition

This episode of Off The Court is brought to you in partnership with American Express. Open up YOUR BOOK OF GREAT sporting moments. ENGLAND'S ROSES, THEY JUST REWROTE HISTORY AGAIN. This new era of netball Superleague has had it all. Fast is what it means. This place, this time, this team. London Pulse are crowned Netball Superleague champions 2025. Welcome to this week's Off The Court. I'm Tamsin Greenway, head coach at London Mavericks. And joining me every week, co-host Tracey Neville, managing director of Stockport County Football's women's team. And of course, ex-England Roses head coach. Tracey, welcome to the

show. How you doing this week? Yeah, I'm good. Um, currently in Spain, so loving life. What? What are you This is my only downside to the day, coming on this pod, speaking to you, Tamsin. Don't believe that for a second. I'll remind you of that in about an hour when I have to cut you off to finish the show. Um, so, crazy stuff going on in the netball world at the minute. Everyone thinks it's settling down as it gets into, um, into final series. However, we both know there is so much going on because it's not only focusing on what's

going to happen over the next few weeks. Who's going to be crowned champions here, overseas. We know there's announcements to be made in terms of England's full-time program, in terms of the Commonwealth Games squad, here in Australia, who we're going to face. Um, and of course, recruitment. There is so much rumblings going on which we're going to talk about. But before we get into all of that, we wanted to start with a bit of chat about Home Nations because all of the Home Nations will be represented at the Commonwealth Games this summer. So, we'll be seeing Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales compete alongside England. Um, and we've been having lots of chats about that England group. But the success and the, um, the drive of the

Home nations over the last sort of 10 years has been huge. There's been a big shift. And those teams are becoming far more competitive against England, against the top nations. And we've seen that with the quality of players that are coming through as well. Um, are you looking forward to seeing that progression of the home nations? Cuz it's fair to say when we used to play, you know, it probably wasn't it wasn't as highly competitive as we're seeing now. I feel even when I was the head coach of England Netball, I think we always tried to support the home nations in what they do. And I think Netball Europe do a great job in doing that. And I think now a lot of teams are blending their

players through the leagues. I think what we used to see at the start was we they used to isolate the home nations into specific teams. You know, you saw Lexis Nexis Dragons used to contain fully Welsh players. Obviously had the gla- um, Scotland, you know, they used to embed a lot of their Scottish. But now I think as they've as they're starting to, you know, push the boundaries, I think they're starting to blend them through other teams. And I think the experience from that is absolutely essential. Playing in one environment all the time, I think can be too isolating. But you're seeing now, you know, the players that are really flourishing through the system, um, and through the Super League and are

absolutely becoming key parts of the team as well. Yeah, I absolutely loved my time as head coach of Netball Scotland. It was, um, one of my favorite journeys that I went on. The netball there is outstanding. The people that work in it, um, the fans that come to support and the players that I got to work with over those years. It was incredible. And actually, one of the things, um, that we talked a lot about when we were in Scotland, and this came very much from Karen Atkinson, who was amazing for them in terms of the performance director, in terms of pushing it forward into the vision, was about getting the Scottish players out of Scotland and to play in other teams. And I tell you what, they

are flourishing this year. You look at someone like Nieve McCAUL uh playing for Lexis Nexis Dragons. Who would have thought that? A Scottish player playing for the Welsh side, basically. And absolutely nailing this year. How impressive you've been with Nieve and how she's been controlling the circle in both positions? Yeah, I think we, you know, she went and sat spent some time on the bench at Loughborough, so she was in a really high-performing environment, but never really got much um court time. Has gone down there and I think she's flourished. Um I think she's probably one of the key um players in that attacking unit. Um I think that'll only put her in good stead going into the you know, the Commonwealth Games. Um

I also feel that um the inclusion of her in that team also she gets a little bit of insight into how Wales play as well. So it makes you think whether she's doing a little bit of homework down there. But also that, you know, they are Lexis Nexis Dragons are at, you know, are including players like Nieve in there cuz that would never have happened, you know, years ago. I thought and like I say, the inclusion of them players is essential in going forward for them. The Karen Atkinson, obviously, you know, in instrumental in some of that development of Netball Scotland and you know, bringing you yourself up there as well, you know, the insights you had, but also the strategies that, you know, you have to let your players expand.

You have to push them to, you know, play in the best netball. And we talk a lot about sending our players over to SSN, you know, it'd be great to see who the first player is that ever makes a move into that league as well. Um and I think that'll be the next move, you know, Wales have come out now and made a statement that they want to be, you know, ranked five in the next four five years. So, you know, they make a statement then Netball Scotland have to start to make that statement and they have to obviously come up with a strategy of how to do it as well. So, I think pushing the boundaries, you know, and how long it takes them to get there means that they're on a journey that is

really competitive for netball. And Tamsin, we have to fly to the other side of the world to get competitive netball as England to in We've always said if we improve the home nations, what uh what will netball Europe look like, you know, we've played in that competition as youngsters. And at the moment we're sending an underperform We send an under age team to that competition. And now we don't really play in it. play in it at junior level, but to increase that competition and make that more competitive can only be great for netball nations going forward. Yeah, absolutely. Uh when I was up there working with Claire Nelson and Karen Atkinson, we had Sara Francis Bayman. It was very important um that we wanted to

leave something that was able to develop and grow and that we didn't just put in competitions that wouldn't last. And I've loved seeing how they've continued to do that. And also how um we brought in other players as well to add value to that. So, it wasn't just about everyone being up in Scotland. So, Iona Christian, she's having the season of her life at Nottingham Forest at the moment. The experience she brings um is going to be absolutely amazing for Scotland moving forward. Hannah Leighton being at Forest as well. So, you've got those little partnerships. You're actually starting to grow that game and even players being brave like Emily Nicholl, she was um a full-time worker

when I went up there. She's gone and spent like time overseas in Australia. So, not playing in the top leagues, but playing down in some of those um lower leagues that we know are so dominant over there that you're playing a completely different style and that only helps grow the game. And what I'm starting to find interesting is how each of the home nations are doing it. We talked about Scotland. We've obviously got Northern Ireland's squad has just been announced. Shona Forbes, their coach, has gone for experience. And we've seen this a lot across the world that when you want to bring a group in, you have to have some of those core experienced players as well. They've not

necessarily had the same opportunities playing in the league. We know we've got Niamh Cooper playing with Michelle Magee, uh but you've seen the likes of Lisa Bowman come back out of retirement. You've seen Carolina Hanlon in that squad and Fiona. All names that we recognize that have been playing the game for years. How important is that they have that if they don't feel they quite have the youth yet? Um yeah, I think they're making grounds. I think um I know that they are trying to push um Karen Rollo is trying to push not you know the expertise of Northern Ireland, you know, trying to develop the leagues there. We chat a lot about bringing back

experienced players around a young experienced group and I think that is essential sometimes. You know, you go into a major competition, you have to have players that have played in that competition. How far they're going to go? I think this is probably their last cycle where they can actually reach out to them players. But in doing that, they have to make a statement. Who are them next players coming through that are going to retain going to be retained for the next competition? I think Shona Forbes is working daily and I think this is something that we don't see a lot from national coaches. You know, that going into a club environment, being an assistant coach, learning the game, learning about the England players, learning about strategies and you know,

working under Chelsea Pitman will only give her the added value and experience that she needs going into that competition and I think you know, you've seen Noeline Te Rapa do it um for the Swifts. You know, she's come over to SSN to work in that competition. Um I went out there to do it as well to get more experience. I think this is the thing with poor coaches. I think we just expect them just to be able to develop in one team and we don't sort of push them to try and develop elsewhere and I think that's great and as a national coach, I think one of the things I really struggled was it's a long time not being in the game because you spend probably six months of the

game not coaching players, just watching the game and you know, you know, that club competition is so crucial, you know, that relentless you know, game experience but also the changes that you have to make and the decisions you have to make. That's training, and we don't practice that enough. I felt re- it was really hard to practice that when you don't have a group of players or you go so long without competition. And that generally doesn't happen in club netball. Yeah, you absolutely do. Like it to get coach week in, week out. And I actually admitted this when I first came into Mavericks, it's very different after coming back off the international scene. And it was also very different

from to when I used to play a coach because you're immersed in it a different way. So, it is an absolute learning. Um and working with a different team as well in a in different combinations on a different journey. Like you're constantly um developing, you're constantly messing up, you're constantly trying to learn from that very, very quickly, and you're constantly trying to like push on in different ways. And I think there's a big shift from that international piece to the club coaching. I think it absolutely matters. And that final Home Nations group, the Welsh Feathers, they're probably doing it differently in that they've got that consistent group at Lexus Nexis Dragons. But, to your

point, they've done it differently in terms of the Kiwi influence in terms of their head coach at Dragons. They've done it differently in terms of the other players they're bringing in. So, just like you say Neve McColm be learning from them, they'll also be learning from Neve McColm. Like the Scottish Thistles and the Welsh Feathers, when they go up against each other, it is brutal. That is like England-Australia, you know, that is the big game. That's the one where they want to get the absolute scalp. Um we've seen the development of the Welsh squad with some of the younger players, but that's still a whole group, that group that are playing week in, week out together as a combination. You Georgia Rowe, you Bethan Dyke, you Phillipa

Yarranton, and of course Leah Middleton going into that mix. They've got a good shot, haven't they, to push on to that sort of fifth position where they want to be, beating some of those African and Caribbean nations? Yeah, and Tamsin, like Welsh netball have made a massive statement. They're going out now with two full-time posts. You know, they're having a full-time within LexisNexis Dragons and then they're having a full-time national coach as well. Whenever they ever done that or had the funding to be able to do that. So, that for me is saying, well, actually not what we're going to try and do is make in a way at the moment a mini England. So, you know, that full-time

coach, she's there now. She can really concentrate on developing the pathway of Welsh Netball, the players. She can She can be a neutral in respect to advising players where to go. Well, that's never That new That neutral um umbrella over them players is really, really key for them to be able to give them the best advice and push them. But, we also said there's a wasted opportunity in North Wales because it's so far away from Cardiff and I don't think people realize that. And a lot of them players tend to home into Manchester Thunder. Um and, you know, play a lot of their netball within the North West, which was always a great advantage for us. But, now what they can start to do is start

to really start to home them players back to Welsh Netball, but also that could also LexisNexis Dragons can still be their feeder team. They can start to get a little bit of cherry pick on them players as well, but also have a bit of neutral um selection across the system. And I think we I, you know, I talked to Helen as their chair a lot about that the other weekend when I was sat with her and I said, you know, developing your pathways is absolutely key, but also you don't know what leagues they could develop underneath as well. And with having that full-time national coach, you know, she's got the capacity to do that, which I think is a massive a massive step towards where they want to be for that rank five in the world.

Well, it's funny actually, cuz when I stepped away from the head coach um at Scotland um after the World Cup in 2023, it was we all felt that role needed to adapt again. It needed to change. We'd taken it as far as we could go in that entirety and actually needed a full-time person living up in Scotland. My personal situation meant that couldn't happen. Um and um I felt I couldn't do the job properly. And actually, it was really hard giving that up because I'd felt like I'd only just started the journey that I wanted to go on, but I felt like we put stuff in place for that to happen, and that's

what went on. They went and got a full-time coach up there. Um Australian influence as well, so again, something completely different, and Netball Scotland backed that as well. They realized that was the next part of this journey. And I think you're going to They're going to start reaping the rewards of that as well because they've done a lot of work in their pathway, which is where they're starting to challenge now, and you can see pockets of those players like a Karis Finn at London Mavericks. You've got Evie Watts at Loughborough Lightning. Like, you're starting to get a real group, and you were at the under 21s, so I watched that under 21 Scotland side, and they're they're really pushing

the boundaries of that next level of play. Um So, we actually caught up with the Welsh Feathers coach, Emily Handyside, and she had loads to tell us about where the Welsh side are at the moment, and of course, what is going to happen in the near future. We've seen a real shift um in international netball in the last 10 years. The rise of Jamaica, the rise of South Africa, the, you know, the rise of Uganda, Malawi, and everybody's been on their toes. We've also seen that shift in the home nations as well. We've alluded to you guys getting to sixth in the world. I think we're seventh at the moment as well. But the Commonwealth Games gives a real opportunity to see some of these other nations then to see

just how close they are getting to the top. Um how exciting is it for Wales to be in that arena and to get a shot at some of the teams? Yeah, absolutely. It's such uh Firstly, let's recognize we weren't even sure for a long while whether netball would be in the Commonwealth Games. So, we are so delighted it is. Um to have three home nation countries there on home soil with our fans able to watch it is absolutely superb. And for us to test ourselves, not only against the top five teams to see what the gap is and what we have to do to close it, but also to compete and perform and win against the teams around

us. You know, Celtic Cup showed Scotland are on the rise. They've been growing for a long time as have Wales. Northern Ireland, they're in a building phase and it's great to have them in that game. So, the competitiveness is going to help all of us and that's really exciting to see us challenge each other, not know which way it's going to go. That's great for the fans, but also to get that exposure against those teams like your Jamaica's that we don't get chance to play at any other time. And for you individually as a coach, that we've heard the news you're stepping away and I've I've read the quotes and I've read the articles. And it always seems a strange time when people leave within that four-year cycle, but you've talked about stepping

away from a place of fulfillment rather than fatigue. And again, I thought that was a really amazing quote for a coach to come out and say because you're kind of seen as people don't really understand the pressures that go through that and the pressures then that adds on to family life and how much it takes away from you as a coach. Any decision in your professional career takes reflection and this was one that I spent a lot of time thinking about. In total, I've been with them nearly four years and in that time we've had a huge amount of success on and off the court. And it's yeah, I have a feeling of pride for the group and what they've achieved and we've laid down some really great foundations to keep building on and

part of leading well in my opinion is recognizing what's needed next and this program is in a really great place whereby there's a huge amount of ambition to keep building on that success and the organization are really invested in that and they've got a strategy and an ambition to push on from sixth in the world in the long term and that presents an opportunity for the program to have a full-time coach in the very near future, and I have to be realistic and say that I can't give it that commitment. So, the best thing I can do right now is hand it over at a moment of strength for the athletes and for the next person to take it on. So, yeah, I leave with a sense of fulfillment and also a sense of duty to

do what's right for the athletes and the squad. I've I've one final question then. Um who should we be looking out for at the Commonwealth Games and beyond? So, I'm not saying who you're going to pick, but I mean in terms of the Welsh feathers at the moment, you spoke about that youth coming through. So, this might be players we don't naturally know about yet. And who are your leaders? We know the feathers of old, like your Nia Joneses, how vocal they were, how important they were uh to that remit. Who do you see as some of those key core leaders and who should we be looking out for the future of this Welsh team is going to keep pushing on to top five? So, I think we've done a great deal of

work around trying to build shared leadership, so it doesn't fall on one person's shoulders and they feel they have to be, you know, really dominant and vocal. I think we've got some great examples of leaders who really lead by example and quietly, but really confidently, like Bethan Dyke, our current captain, does that really well. You've got your leaders who consistently do their job, like a Georgia Rowe, but we've also got youngsters coming through who are challenging, who don't want us to sit still, who want us to keep growing. And as an example, we've got athletes who are coming through the pathway, who've got their first caps. So, Millie Carter, Ellie Blackwell both got their first caps in the autumn. And Millie chose to go and explore

opportunities at other clubs, and I'm really delighted to see that she got some time with Thunder in the Super League. So, I'm excited about the youngsters who are showing self-leadership to put themselves out there and grow and get court time. And I'm equally excited about the more experienced athletes who go about their jobs really professionally. Well, listen, Emily, thank you so much for joining us. We can't wait to see how the home nations do at the Commonwealth Games. It was really important for us to share that and over the next couple of weeks we'll be talking not only about who we think are going to be in the England squad, but also how we see the Welsh team developing Scotland as well.

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Welcome back to Off The Court. We've just heard that from the current Welsh Feathers coach, Emily Handyside. And Tracy, she talked about stepping away after the Commonwealth Games and leaving room for a new coach to come through and Um we've actually had news from the SSN we've seen on social media this morning about Briony Akle at the Swifts. Do you want to fill us in on that? Yeah, I think for me I'm absolutely shocked um that they're going down this path, but she as I originally thought she'd stepped away from when I saw the actual announcement, but what they're doing is and I'll just read her statement um

basically they're making A- Akle said she embraced the process and firm she continues to continue in the head coach role. I'm fully supportive of the process that Netball New Zealand engaged in as it's a vital best practice, good governance, and being a leader in high-performance sport. At the Swifts, we always aim to be the best on and off the court. I She's exceptionally proud of what we've been She's been able to achieve over the last 9 years and passionate about what we can do next. She welcomes and excited to opportunity to present that vision through the process. And the success of the Swifts over many

generations has been driven by standards, innovation, and doing more. I expect this of the players and I'm ready to do likewise. So, they've actually not She's actually not stepped down. What they're making her do is they're going to advertise the head coach role, see what's out there, see who applies, and Briony Akle has been given the opportunity to apply for a role. And I think Noeline Taurua did something similar for Netball New Zealand. Um and I've I've got two I've got I've sort of got two visions on this. One, I think what it does is give Net- Netball New South Wales the opportunity to have other people present a strategy that they probably wouldn't have heard, particularly when a coach

has been there for a long time. It gives them new ideas um new innovations in respect to whether they do appoint that person or whether they're just doing it as a process to get new ideas on what that role could look like or what where the Swifts could do. So, they're getting insight and that is a way that some people do the interviews. The second part of it is um I think Bry- Briony Akle is a massive pull on players and with the contracts being up this year, you know, a lot of them players stay there for Briony. And with the uncertainty around that particular role and coming towards the end of the season, could that impact the Swifts? Could that be the you know it could that be the time where s- key players decide to

step away knowing that Brian is not going to be there anymore. So, there is that risk as well going through this process at this time. Tamsin, I want to ask you at Mavericks, you know, what would happen if your bosses come to you and say we're going to put out your job, but we want you to apply? How would like I think confidence-wise? Yeah, it's it absolutely suck, wouldn't it? Uh it's the what it's the worst thing in the world because I'm not even going to lie. Like the problem with performance coaching I say this all the time and I say it to players and I say it to coaches I've worked with, it never lasts. There's no good outcome on performance coaching or playing performance netball. Like I say that not very light-heartedly bearing in mind

I've given my whole life to it. It is stressful, it is hard. The ups are the ups, the downs are the downs. And I mean they are real downs. And actually like what's the happy ending here? You're at a club for 10 years and you win seven competitions in the last one you win in your last year, you're like, "Oh, I want to go for one more because that's how mentally you are, right?" So, you step away at the top, but even then you've got unfinished business. You win for 5 years and then you have 3 years that are awful and then it's like, "Oh God, I've failed." When you're forgetting that you won for 5 years. Like nothing lasts. And bearing in mind you're one of lots of other

people. So, if you only ever judge your success on the win, it's a real problem because there's also seven other coaches trying to win the Super League this year. There's also seven other coaches trying to win the SSN. There's five in five others in the ANZ. So, you know, it can't always be about that. But, it runs its course. I don't like this. I'm going to be really honest because if they want to keep Bryony, they should sit down with her over coffee and go, "What's your plan? What's your vision?" They should pull her up on the things that they don't like and they should say, "Is this going to change?" And you should mutually agree. I hadn't thought about it in your way. Uh maybe my mind doesn't work the same that you

bring in people to get ideas, but I do like that. But I also think there's other ways of going around that. You can go out to other consultants. You can speak to people. You can help. Now, that is also a problem because as a head coach, if your boss comes to you and says, "Oh, I'm going to bring this person in because I really think they can help and support you." It's also like how that's done and how that's approached and whether you're open to take that on board as well. So, there's so many layers to this. But I don't think I think netball's gone down this road and it's starting to happen more consistently and I don't

like it because I think there's too much respect for that head coach that you couldn't have done over a coffee and decided whether she's the person to go because let's be honest, we're not inundated with high-level performance coaches all around the world that have that experience. Now, they've got to get that experience at some point, not questioning that at all. Um and you've got I think we've got to be more open to giving coaching roles to people that aren't haven't just played the top-level game, but have also believed, and I don't know how SSN do it and you might answer this, I also believe we've got to give better pathways for those coaches to experience that as well. We

definitely don't do that enough in the Super League. Does that happen in SSN? Like, are the pathways there that you can grow and get into that SSN role? I think we can talk about coaching in itself terms and you know yourself, um it's often operated in silo. I don't think there's a lot done around the governing bodies in supporting coaches or elite coaching. Um and I actually don't think they know how to do it best. Um it's also Tamsin, there's a trust thing, isn't it? Um and I think the best performance coaching I've ever been or the best supported I've ever been was the in probably in the earlier days when

we used to be included a lot within the England set up. Um we used to work with other coaches. They used to bring us in to lead competitions um around other experienced coaches. So, I went to um a Netball Europe um with Denise at one point. And it was great how she run that team, and I got experience from that. I also went with um Anna Stembridge as well on a national tour. I think that is really important in respect to developing coaches, but that wasn't just me, it was other people got that opportunity as well through the Super League. I look at it as I said, look at it two ways. Um I do think sometimes an environment can become very stale when you've had someone in there quite a long time.

Um and, you know, challenging that head coach for her vision and her strategy is a real positive. Can that be done behind closed doors? Cuz I've done loads of times where even before I left the Mavericks, I went in there and presented what I feel the future of the Mavericks is, you know, the players that obviously are recruited and are in the team now. You know, I went in then and presented that to the board about what where this franchise needs to go next. I also did that with England, and I loved that connection with the board, and I loved being able to put that forward. Um I loved being challenged on that, but also I loved their insight. That you know, there's some great expertise on a board um

who have different um ideas, and they can sort of bring in different parts to that. And I think that's what's really great about being at Stockport County. You know, there's there's different insights into how to run a team and what needs to be included. I think the confidence, you know, there's two ways I look this from a shop window point of view. You know, if Briony Akle is made again the head coach of the Swifts, is that saying that there's nobody better than her out there, or were they devaluing some of the applicants that went forward? The other thing that it says if she doesn't get that head coach role,

what is there a for Briony Akle? you cannot lose that experience and the work that she's done within that area from that particular organization and I think we're so happy to lose expertise like that. Um and we just can't. We just can't lose expertise like Briony Akle. You know, she's she would be so good, but I do you know, from her point of view she probably won't want to coach at any other level but SSN. So and the head coach that comes in would they want Briony Akle involved? It becomes a real conflict and you know, so times and if they appointed someone in London Mavericks into your head coach role, would you want to be their understudy? And I think that would just be a question of who that person is, but also the value you would

feel on that. Yeah, it's also how it's been done, isn't it? Like if it's a conversation to go we want to bring in new ideas, we feel this is where it could support, this links into your plan, and you're still helping to build towards that. It's different, but if it's we've lost confidence in you and therefore we're bringing somebody else in, that's when it just doesn't work. And they I just struggle with how public this stuff is because coaching is a tough gig in itself. Everybody's very quick to tell you who you should have played, what changes you should have made, what should have happened here, you know, I it always cracks me up after my game. We finished our game at the weekend and I had a fan come up and go

and challenge how who we played and how we played. I thought it was really quite interesting, isn't it? Because if I came up to you whilst you're working in your office and said, "Um how are you doing that spreadsheet?" And blah. You do you know what I mean? You'd automatically be a little bit knocked about it. Now, I get it. It's a fan game and you have to be open to that and it is part of the gig, but straight after the game it's never good, is it? It's never great. But you do your job and you talk about it and you talk openly about it. And I'm going to say it again, you don't have a crystal ball. Some of the stuff you think is going to happen sometimes gets totally sidetracked and you're like, "Wow, I didn't see that coming."

And you only learn from experience. I think that there's two parts I want to pick up from what you spoke about. The one is the effect on the players. Because I sometimes think the board are very um very far removed. And I'm not saying that from my club, but in my experiences at other places are quite removed from how the players feel about certain coaches and certain people. And the best way you can do this is having an open process with those conversations with captains, players, youngsters, all of it. And we saw that with Netball New Zealand when this was happening to Noeline Taurua, but it was done publicly. And that was so wrong because then you've got players in

awkward positions where people were being blamed, names were being thrown around on the circuit. And it was like it was not okay. Um but I do think you can have better relationships through because as to your point, there'll be a lot of pro-Briony players in that group who will be blindsided by this. And then suddenly you're not just having to rebuild what you're choosing at the top. You're also having to rebuild your team cuz lots of players do stay for coaches and systems and will only stay if they know who's doing that role, right?

Yeah, and if I think about, you know, your Clough, your proud, um your Hadleigh, your Housby, you know, they all say it's sort of the Swift environment. You know, they are the sort of you know, original Swift players who started to win that championships. And and they were they are so strong. Like we tried to recruit Clough at the Mavericks. And you know, one of her things was, you know, "I can't leave this environment um that you know, this is, you know, playing under Briony. You know, we have a Swift way." There were there was talk, you know, a few years ago that they all took pay cuts to enable them all to actually be at that franchise as well. So I whether that was true or not. So for them it was the environment, it was

the people, it was, you know, what they've embedded. And removing Bryony from that is that the next uplift of the Swifts? You know, you saw what Rob did then, obviously, Bryony come in. And you know, does that disband the team? Is it a way of looking at different players, looking at a different outlook? And you know, people talk about have the Swifts gone a little bit stale, you know, because they don't tend to bring in new players, you know, or you know, they don't tend to break up that sort of like that group of players. But also, they are the cement of the team as well, and that's what people need to realize. You know, building bringing in players around them that group of athletes is really good.

Yeah, it's difficult, isn't it? But then change is sometimes necessary, and it's sometimes good. Now, I don't believe it can always be on results-based because sport just doesn't work like that. But there is a timeline of performance, and we see it internationally all the time. Like two cycles is a lot, it's eight years. You know, it's rare that people go past that. And you see it in all other aspects of life that you know, you can't be on boards forever, running businesses forever, because change does matter. I want to pick this up to you, Tracy, because when you come into a new role. So, say Bryony doesn't stay at the Swifts, right? And the new coach has to walk in there on the first day.

And take this group I mean, you've got to be nervous, right? for you, you've done it at England. Melbourne Vixens was slightly different because it was a new franchise. But how do you even remember like that first day walking into England? There'd been so much change. Obviously, one coach had gone, you've got to come in and take that role. And you must be nervous, right? You must be thinking, "Oh dear god, what happens now?" First you It's like your first training session, isn't it? Like, I think you're all right with the talking part of it and then you go into your first training session you're like, I've actually never Yeah.

This is the best shot window session ever. There's no detail in it. There's no content in it. Let's just deliver a really great session. And you know, you've I've known in the past as a player a coach has come in and generally the first session is probably the hardest session that you've ever done because you want them to go away and go, "Geez, that's going to That hurt that session." But Tamsin, like, you know, they might not be looking if you, you know, Briony Akle we can't forget that she's also, you know, going with Netball New Zealand now. You know, she's she's part of their coaching team going to the Commonwealth Games, potentially going to the World Cup. So, her role has increased. She probably wants to develop her experience

at international level. Does she want, you know, is she the next successor to Stacey Marinkovich? Who knows, you know, does she want that role? And we don't know where her thinking is, but all also it might be, you know, the understudies might be the one that steps in. So, you've seen And I feel that this happens a lot within the regional netball. You saw it at the Vixens, you know, Di Honey coming in after Simone McKinnis. So, they actually had a pathway that she was obviously assistant, now she's been head coach. Is that what's happening at the Swifts? Who knows? Mhm. I remember my first one at Scotland and I went in and I was I wanted them to defend different differently. So, we were like, "Right, we're going to

go We gave her such a bad call to do the summer fair session." Claire Maxwell, honestly, she looked at me like she wanted to kill me. It was the worst. I was like, "I don't want you to go so one-on-one. We're going to try a bit of off mark and we're going to do this." And she It was like brutal. Um and she was the one I needed to win over. She was like captain the stalwart of the Scottish Thistles. We'd obviously played against each other a lot and obviously I'm not always the um the best player to play against on court because I've always got something to say and I was cocky and wanted to win. And um and yeah, uh Claire Maxwell would have been on the end of some of that at some

point during our career. So, I had to massively win her over. By the end of it, we were great and um, she really bought into that. But, it's quite It is quite interesting cuz you go in thinking, "Oh god, I wasn't expecting that." And actually with the Thistles, there was so much change. I brought in players like Iona Christian and Hannah Leighton, and that had never happened before in that Scottish environment, not really. They'd had overseas players, but not players that were based in England and there was lots of changes that we did. And you have to get the trust of the players very, very quickly, which is um, which is tricky at times, but it's fun when you go in there and you set up

a plan and you believe in the journey and you get them to finally buy in. But, I tell you what, going into that Swifts environment after 9 years under Briony, that would be a very tough gig. Tracey, we've talked home nations, we've talked overseas. We have to turn our attention back then to the Netball Superleague and the England Roses over the next few weeks, of course. Uh, this week we're going to be hearing about the full-time program. And actually, England Netball are doing a live Q&A on Instagram. They're going to be talking about that. I think there's uh, check out their socials, something

on Thursday and Friday this week. How good is that they're being really open to communication? Anna Stembridge will be on that and Josie Pointer as well, who I love as their head pathway coach. I think it's a great opportunity for them to get the messaging out, particularly with the announcements that are currently coming. Um, I think Anna Stembridge has got so much to say and I think people will really value um, her answering these questions open and honestly. And you know, I saw her at the game the other week with Olivia Murphy and you know, they're so

interested in what the players are doing, what's happening overseas. And we had some great conversations around that. And I think putting her to the forefront is the step she needs to make because she's our leader going into this Commonwealth Games. Everyone's so behind her, but they also want to start to be part of the journey. and I think this is probably one step for her to take people on the journey on Friday and I think we need more from her in particular as the squad selections come up. How excited are you to see this full-time program then because that is going to give us a real insight into who's actually going to go to Commonwealth Games?

Yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see whether she goes down the more development route, you know, that the next sort of cycle. It is quite strange that they're going they're they're naming the full-time program but also going to advert for her role after the Commonwealth Games as well now, you know, because are these the players that they see for the future of England? Are these the players that they see going for World Cup? Um or are these the players um that these are what Anna Stembridge wants? And I think we'll see when we see that sort of full-time program come out who they're going to include.

I think it'd be great to understand on Friday probably question we have is what how do they see that full-time program going forward and what's what is the aim of that because the way it was set up originally was not to have a lot of experienced players within that. The idea was then experience would just, you know, sort of transition in at different parts of the year. So, I think for us they've been holding quite a lot of experienced athletes in that full-time program who, you know, take out a lot of the financial wage of that program which then probably has a knock-on effect that you can't start to develop some of the youngsters coming through. So, I think it that'll probably be where England in where

their intention is going forward. I don't know what your thoughts are, Tamzin, on that full-time program. But what would you want to see from it? What players would you want to see in there? Yeah, well, I want to see it smaller which they're they're already committed to doing. So, that's good and I think um they're going to keep that England right like the A squad or the future roses or whatever that's going to look like as well. So, that's fine, but I think all of those squads need to be smaller. I've said it before, you can't just pick everyone because they're good.

We know they're good. It's more about the direction that we want to go in. So, I want to see a mixture, as you've said, like you can't have it being all the experience. So, I'm really hoping that the youngsters that are on on that announcement, that are involved in that squad, are the ones that we want to take forward, and I don't want them to be one-hit wonders. I don't think mentally works for them either. You know, you get your one hit in the squad for a year, and that doesn't work. I also want to see, and this is off the back of this, those players that are in those squads make sensible decisions about the Superleague teams that they pick. Because actually, I think some of

the detriment of pulling some of those players in to those squads early has had a knock-on effect of them then not playing all year in Superleague. And I honestly believe if you were going to be the next center, wing defense, wing attack through in the squads, you need to be at clubs where I'm not saying you play 60 minutes every week, but you should be pushing the boundaries. You know, you've seen it at Swifts with Grace White. She's taken her opportunity with Helen Housby being down, but before that, she was getting on the court. They were actually impacting her and using it. We've seen a lot in the past of some of the young England players brought into

that full-time program that had no court time, and so get dropped out of the full-time program the following year. And like, that just can't keep happening. So, I'm hoping there's some direction. I'm hoping there's more openness with those players around those as well, and more openness with the clubs. So, you're not no one's hoarding, but they're actually given opportunities to these players. And that's tricky, but I think that's going to matter. You I don't want to see a group of players where there's people in there that just aren't getting quality time at Superleague. Otherwise, what's the point? Yeah, and I think when it was originally set up, we you know, we didn't want to replicate um what the players were

doing. So, just to give you a little bit of an insight, you know, some of you know, the SSM players, they're in full-time programs at the ready. They're getting They've been fully serviced by their clubs. You know, there's also the, you know, some of them experienced athletes get can get a little bit complacent as well, you know, now it's time we want you to play for England. We see you as absolute future. But, I think you just need to go on time spend some time in your club, but also out of this system as well because some people some players have been in that system for good like eight plus years. I think that for me is just too long, um, to be in that system and constantly living away from home and

being in that. I also think, um, and we did start to do it. We, you know, we used to review the program that we used to release the players on a Wednesday, Thursday morning to go back to their club. So, one night a week they always had a session with their club and I think that was quite great in their development as well. So, I think holding players for long continuous long periods of time in Loughborough it was never great for their welfare. We obviously did a lot of welfare checks around that and it was never good for their welfare. Having time out was also key, um, and monitoring them players. But, I do think it's a great base for some of them youngsters and like you said, there's a long-term aim on that. So, there's I think there's a good

three-step approach. There's the experience, there's sort of your core, but then there's the developmental ones where you like, "Look, we're just we're bringing you in on a um, this part-time basis because I think the loading is quite great as well, Tamsin. You know, the expectation on players is has increased this year and we've seen the consequence of that has been quite a huge amount of injuries. So, I think netball is a unique sport because of the sort of surface we play on as well. Um, but yeah, I think the key around this for me is which players are they targeting? Are we going to Is there a hoard of experienced players? And if there is a load of experienced players within that Roses program that's going to be announced, then is there

worth having that Roses program? Because this was about getting athletes into that sort of full-time mindset. You know what I also um want to see some actual shift in positional stuff. So, um after Geva Mentor retired, we all panicked about who the next goalkeeper was, and it's taken us a long time to get there. Now, suddenly you've gotten coming out of everywhere. You've got um obviously Jazmin Brown, the rise of Jazmin Brown. You've had Alice Harvey. You've got Halimat Adeyemi. Um you've had Razia in there. You've then got Yomi Wilson, Selena Appleby Prince, Darcy Everett. We've just brought in Ellie Savala. Like, I mean, we've suddenly got this whole range of big goalkeepers, people that can change the

game, right? Um but then I'm going, "Who are your goal defenses after Funmi Fadoju?" You've got Tash who I really rate in there, but who are the others? Like, who are we starting to build on? And we go through these waves of like, "Um What's next?" And actually, the shooter one for me is always the one that concerns me. Defenders pop up, midcourt pop up. We had a big thing that everyone played center wing defense, and it was a push to get center wing attacks, and we're getting that now with your Emma Rayner, Shabella Bayliss. Obviously, Jo Shaw's

in there. But the shooter piece is the bit that always concerns me, and that's where I'd like us to see more development done because I don't believe we have a suitable pathway to bring shooters through at the moment that are ready to step into the Super League side. We certainly see that at SSN because SSN go out and basically recruit every great shooter around the world when they're ready. You know, even then it's tricky. Like, Mary Cholhok's first experience in SSN is not necessarily been fun for her. Like, it's tough. It's tricky. It's It's hard playing at that level. We saw it with Donnell Wallam. She come overseas, did time in England, did time in New Zealand, then went back and is now absolutely starring. Like, this is not

an easy gig. And I'm not sure what the answer is, but I worry there's a shooter shortage year all over the world because SSN take all the best. New Zealand have got a core group in there and we've got a core group, but when you look at our table in Super League, I think we're the ones that are struggling. So, if you go top end, the highest goal scored in our league is Loughborough Lightning and that's 950 and that's by Sammy Wallace. And this is no disrespect to Sammy Wallace, but she's at the end of her career and she's managing to still get them over the line with 951 goals. And she's actually had a couple of games missing and she's still the second best shooter in the league with 400 goals.

You've got Rolene at Forest who's smashing it. L and Liv. And Liv is still up there in some of the top shooters even though she's missed games. And the drop-off from the top four to fifth is over 100 goals. It's over 100 goals. And to sixth where we're sitting is 200 goals to that top level. Now, if you look at the Australian leagues and the New Zealand leagues, the drop-off to the top and bottom, other than Giants, is 50 goals. So, we've got to help our shooters in England develop. We've got to keep pushing the next agenda of shooters and we've got to give them opportunities. Now, I don't know all the answers to this, but I do believe it's a bit of a crisis.

Yeah, I think but it's pinpoint shooters, isn't it? Like, where's our game moving? And I think that's the strategy that needs to come. And I think this is done through coach development, Tamsin. And we talked about the era of when we used to come through and we used to I used to sit in rooms with all Super League coaches when I was at Manchester Thunder and we used to talk about the next era of game. What shoot what style are we going to play? What sort of shooters are we going to start to recruit? There's also There's other things in that, Tamsin, because if they're not getting ball supply as well, that's also becomes a problem.

Well, this is it because if you're not 6'3" and you're lobbing the ball in like with a rotating circle, you've got to have feeders who can feed the rotating circle as well. So, this is not just Exactly. that. So, I think there's a tech I think there's a technical element in this. I think there is a shooter element in that. And I always say and I'm actually doing something for Netball Europe at weekend and I'm doing a shooting um workshop. How much time in your session can you spend with your shooters? Now, we're in a really bad way in England because, you know, you pick up your court from 8:00 or 10:00 and that's generally a team session. Um you know, and the freedom we have we had a lot in Australia is that you could go out to

any post during the day and just shoot. Like you could just get any court anytime during the day. We had full access, you know, I looked out on my office every day to four courts, netball courts, that my shooters could go and shoot every day. We also had the capacity to put 3-hour booking slots where the shooters would come out and do some work with the shooters or at the end we could do some work with the center court on the feeding. So, a lot of our time is spent with the shooters because the game ends and start ends with them, doesn't it? If we You don't win if your shooter is missing, you don't win quite simply. But, I don't think we have that freedom within England. Um I don't think we put

enough time into our shooters. Um we, you know, used to get a lot of shooting programs. Um I don't know if they're still being handed out. Um you know, there used to be time at the post for the shooters. And we can say, "Oh, yeah, they get time at the post." But, I go and watch junior netball and I don't see any shooting sessions or any time spent with shooters and or any quality time. I also, you know, what the workshops that used to be put on by the governing body around, you know, some of them pathway shooters, you know, I used to go in, Karen Greig used to go in as a shooting coach. I think you, Tamsin, used to go in as well. We used to

always be doing shooting sessions with them players, and I'm not sure how much is done now cuz I'm I've been sat out of England netball for a long time, and obviously being in Australia. But, you know, that is again wasted opportunity as well. And, you know, whereas in Netball Victoria, they used to have a an elite they used to have a like an elite pathway, like the next gen pathway where, you know, Cathy Fellows used to come back to Victoria and actually coach them girls through their different positional skills. So, you know, they you know, and that is Cathy Fellows as a senior. I know for fact that Tamsin uh sorry, Tania Obst is coming over to England with their Sassy Group, their pathway group, um

later on in the year. You know, how much do we work with the pathway? I know I used to spend quite a high amount of time in the pathway at Manchester Thunder, but I'm not sure how much time these head coaches have got now to spend in their pathway or put into their pathway. Yeah, the problem is as well is like it's all evening based. So, there's only so many sessions you can actually get to, you know? One of the things I've always struggled with in my coaching journey is change loads. The minute you have kids, you can't be out four evenings a week. It just doesn't work like that. It's It's got a time frame of what you can give to it in different ways.

Um I agree in terms of like the specialist stuff, and actually one of the biggest things is access to courts, and some have it loads, some don't. You've also got that mix of shooters uh players being at work, so not all of them can do that, which is why the professional era will help. But, it's also, like you say, that the shooting is so many different parts of it. It's not just you isolated at a post shooting. It's then you shooting under pressure, shooting under fatigue. It's then you shooting in game-based scenarios. It's then getting the feed right. Um and as you say, like uh you know, there is limited time to do that.

When you're building a new circle as well, it's even harder. And then even when you've got some of the best in the world, like you know, we talked a lot about Swifts today. You're going to got one of the best shooters in the world, but it's probably brought down Helen Housby's shooting game. Not on her percentage of what she can do, but what she brings to the game. So actually is it even the best fit? You know, do you need a target? Look at what West Coast Fever did this year. They went and got Romelda Aiken George because they couldn't have Jhaniele Fowler, but Romelda Aiken George is at the end of her career and it's not going to be enough to get them over the line. I

can't see them winning it this year. Um you know, some go some games that they're scoring just over 40 with her on the court. And so actually, were they better just to rip the band-aid off this year and play Olivia Wilkinson? I know she was injured, but they're young under 21 and go, well, we've got to try something else. Try her play her and Sasha Glasgow. But to your point, then that changes all the feeding. We talked about this with Richo the other week. You can't just go from one style to another and just expect everyone to do that. But I do think it's not just about the individual, it's about the combination. Look at Vixens.

They are second in the league, but they actually have the most amount of goals, three more than Thunderbirds. And they're playing a rotating circle. Sophie Garbin doesn't even fit in the top five shooters in terms of load, but they're still scoring that amount of goals because Keira Austin does the two-pointers and she's so dominant in that circle. So you've got to then find a way that it works and also the way the game's shifting. Can you just rely on one-point shooter? You know, you need the two-pointers as well. Does that Is that going to be something that the game goes to?

Will the tall just I'm only going to shoot my one-pointers become a problem? Do they least need to score two or three, especially if we see it filter into the international game, which at some point it might happen? Yeah. And I know when I look at the shooters and you know, I see some of the comments on different styles. So you look at Let's just take West Coast Fever at the moment with Jhaniele Fowler, you know, you expectation is that the goal attack probably only puts up what? The max 10 shots a game. If that, you know, you saw with Rhea Dixon with Rolene, um Struthers Forest, you know, there's a lot of criticism around Rhea Dixon being basically a glorified wing attack in that goal attack position

because she takes up very limited shots. But that's the style that them teams are playing and I don't think that should be criticized. Whereas if you look at someone like a Vixens that you've said, you know, I would say Sophie Garbin takes on a high proportion of the shots, but Kira Austin also takes on a huge amount as well. And I think it's the style and what you're bringing through um is really key in this. Um and what role they're going to be playing and the sort of players that you need to recruit. Now, I look at it and I go there isn't enough time spent on the shooters, but that doesn't mean to say we've not got some great shooters even though the volume of goals are there. So, you know, I actually

really rate Emma Thacker. I think she's a great addition. I know she's not playing at the moment for you. You know, I liked her when I was an England coach. I thought she probably was our next gen coming through. Is she consuming a high proportion of goals? Maybe not. So, then it's probably well, how can we get her more ball supply? So, we had Chimona Nelson last year at um the Mavericks and you know, she didn't miss when you got the ball, but the ball supply needed to be better. And that comes around recruitment. So, then obviously Jamie Lee Price coming into that is really key. You know, and that's how you look at it.

I also feel that there's a lot of onus on um regional netball and the governing body to be able to support some of these teams because, you know, that the aim of the next gen, you know, what is the aim of that? Should there be a lot more criteria around what that looks like for us? Um we've also got the premier prem division running from obviously one, you know, what's the aim of that? I think our competitions now are just blurring that what is the aim of that? What we trying to achieve? What is what how we going to bring through the next generation of athlete? And I think that is really key. Now, why can't we have foreigners in the next gen league? They do out in Australia.

You know, you've seen players going out there playing in the state league competitions. You know, why can't next gen include imports? You know, I don't know. I think we just need a probably a little bit more strategy around our competition within within England cuz I don't think we're putting our shooters under enough pressure or enough world-class situations that we're bringing them through which we used to do years ago. And I'm not one of them that says it was better years ago. It definitely wasn't. But we need to move with what's happening. Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. I think there's so much to be done there and we've talked about it on so many different levels, whether it's the competition they need to play in,

whether it's the access that they need, whether it's the actual coach development around the style of play that those players need to do, how feeders let go of ball. And I'm seeing it more and more in junior netball as I go around as well, like it's very set because everybody wants to win rather than necessarily the overall development of what that's going to lead to further down the line. And there's so many there is so many layers to this, but I do think it's a problem and I think it's something we need to keep addressing because um you know, England with all the chat around Helen Housby, will she be fit? Won't she be fit? You know, I would love to think that regardless, we've got the people that are ready to step in. We've got enough

talent and enough ability across our country in netball now that we have to have people that are ready to step into those roles. But listen, um that is where we're going to leave it this week. Next week we're going to have lots to talk about in terms of announcements, people that are going to be in there and we can get really stuck into the commies and the finals as we build down to this final thing. We're going to see who takes those final two spots this week with uh Manchester Thunder at the top, Loughborough Lightning in second, and London Pulse in third. Who's going to get those home semi-finals? Round 14 will be very, very exciting. And you can join us for all the action

this weekend starting on Friday night 6:55 NIC Leeds Rhinos versus Birmingham Panthers. That's live on Sky Sports YouTube and the app. Saturday, we have 3:55 London Mavericks versus Leeds Rhinos Dragons live on Sky Sports YouTube and the app. 5:00 p.m. AO Manchester Thunder versus Loughborough Lightning. That's on the BBC. Top of the table clash. Who is going to finish first, second, and third? And then Sunday, it's 5:55 Nottingham Forest versus London Pulse. Can they upset the London side? And that's on Sky Sports Action and YouTube.