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Hello there, this is 4 Excuse for Defense attorney Howard Greenberg, how are you? Advocacy is such a dense topic. I mean, I think it is witchcraft. It is deep. It is alchemy. There are no moral victories in this business if you don't win. it's a disaster for the person. You have to win. See if he's coming through on anything, or did he come through on a bullshit warrant last night? In the words of Jesse Pinkman, you don't want a criminal lawyer, you want a criminal lawyer.
And so we get Saul Goodman, Breaking Bad's fast-talking, lovable scumbag of an attorney. Last season on The Real, we found a real-life Walter White. So this year, we wondered if there were any real-world counterparts to his lawyer, too. When we asked around the New York legal world about who was the most outrageous, most boundary-pushing, and most effective criminal defense attorney out there, everyone told us one thing. Better call Howard Greenberg. No one is Quite as outlandish as Howard is. You almost gasp at what you see coming out of his mouth.
I had a nephew that got in trouble with the police and Howard was the first attorney I thought of. If I ever got into trouble, Howard is the one that I'm calling. Call Howard. Call Greenberg. How are you? Hi, Howard. Pleasure to meet you, dear. This is what Professor Van Helsing looks like in the morning. You know who Van Helsing is, don't you?
I do, I do. Yeah, the vampire slayer. OK, come on in. So this is your crash pad, My crash pad, I am sorry to say, does not reside in a nail salon, in the back of a nail salon. Oh, right, Saul's office, yes. This is my home away from home four days a week. Many great victories have been crafted. Edited and tweaked in this space right behind you is the next one. It's a high-profile sex trafficking case and you know I'm working it up here. So you've never been put in a position where you have to defend somebody who's actually guilty?
It's irrelevant to me. I prefer they tell me but I don't care. I'm more afraid of the government than I am of some individual scumbag who I represent. Tell me about your day to day. So you wake up at what time? I get up 5-6, the first thing I do is work out. I don't know if I look it, but underneath this is a finely tuned machine. Then I have coffee, then shower, and then I get going if I'm in court or get to work if I'm not in court. So let's talk about what you're going to wear today.
I don't think I'm going to wear this shirt, but several suits, hanging. Check this out. I mean, you know, you can earn the right. To wear something that would otherwise look silly. You. You can. Anyone can. Anyone, okay. But I have. If I impart to a jury the impression that if their ass was in a sling they'd want me sitting next to them, I can do whatever the fuck I want. Okay? Okay. You heard it. Hard work in this business makes up for a lot of sins. Good. Let's go get him. I'm not going to let the government crucify my guys.
Howard Greenberg's record of courtroom victories is rivaled only by the rap sheets of his clients. In his 25 years of practice, Howard has been a relentless and unapologetic advocate for people accused of everything from murder to drugs to weapons to sex trafficking. Defending the likes of the so-called Lolita lawyer who confessed to paying a woman to have sex with her teenage daughters, and rapper Bobby Shmurda, an alleged leader of the violent GS9 gang. But even more than his clientele, it's his ruthless and outrageous courtroom tactics that have made him a darling of the local press.
Can you do the schmoney dance? No, but I know how to count that schmoney. For more background on Howard's larger-than-life reputation, we reached out to some of his former opponents and longtime allies to get a firsthand account of what it's like to watch him work. Can you tell me about some of your first encounters with Howard? I remember him when I first came to the office. I think the thing I remember most about him is you never knew what was going to come out of his mouth. And sometimes it was very personal to you.
Like if you tried to argue about a case in front of a judge, he would potentially attack you. You Howard did it to everybody There's almost an endearing quality now when you look back at it because um the shit he's sorry It was fucking hysterical I started at legal aid. I started as a public defender and I just remember coming to know him from seeing him in and out of courtrooms. You know this crazy guy with the jet black hair plugs while coming to the courtroom. And you know, he's not easy to miss.
He doesn't look like a typical lawyer. You know, just between like the hair and the way he moves and the way he speaks, he really knows how to. to push the envelope with a lot of people, but not cross the line where he would end up getting himself into trouble. There was a prostitution case of Howard's that got a lot of coverage. Can you tell me a little bit about that? It was a case where two men that were accused of running a prostitution ring, and he was giving summations, and in it he was saying things to the effect that.
He would love to be like a hoe working for them. That, you know, if he made as much money as them, he would be doing it too. That is kind of the way he rolls. I'm telling you, he does things that most of the rest of us would never do. Like you're cross-examining a victim. Robbery, right? And you'll say, it was nighttime, right? Yes. It was dark out, right? Right. There were no streetlights, were there? No. The traditional approach would be, leave it.
Don't ask one more question. And then you just sum up and say, there is no. no way that witness could have seen who robbed her because it was dark out, there were no street lights, you heard it from her own mouth. But what you don't ask the witness is, so you couldn't see the person who robbed you, could you? Because if you ask that ultimate question, it can only go wrong. But Howard will ask the ultimate question and then ask it five more ways and five more times and make them cry. It's Howard, the vampire slayer, the lawyer. We have an appointment. What, are you in another lawyer's office?
Okay. Whatever price he charges you, I'll beat it, okay? And by the way, you should look at my record before you hire anybody. And if his record is better than mine when you compare the two, you should hire him. That's impossible. I know it's impossible. But when are you going to be here? In 15 minutes? Okay, good boy. And I know you wouldn't stand me up. Okay. Motherfucker. Over the course of the years, I've learned to develop a very thick skin with him. He's very blunt and direct, and that's what I think a lot of people really like about him.
Is the fact that you know with him you're not going to get the frills and the dress-up and the lollipops and the candy canes. You're going to get the very straightforward facts. And he really, really fights for the common good, which is what I really give to him. He puts his heart and soul into what he does because he understands what it's like when you have the backing of The state of New York or the backing of the federal government against you and you're this one person trying to fight for your life
So tell me what you're working on right now. I'm prepping for this gigantic Sex trafficking case in New York County. How long do you see this trial going on for? Maybe three weeks, four weeks You know the usual bullshit where they're trying to turn Promoting prostitution into sex trafficking. What's the difference between sex trafficking and prostitution then? I'll give you one example, you tell me. Okay. Sexual slavery.
Sex trafficking. Now you give me one. Um, she's a prostitute out of her own free will. That's not sex trafficking. However, they always tried in some broad to opine that there's no such thing as free will. And no girl can become a hoe because she wants to. And if she's making 10 or 20 thousand a week, that's cause someone made her do it. And did you know that most times with Johns they simulate the act? That's how fucking stupid Johns are. Oh yeah, obviously. Of course everybody knows they must be faking it. No, I'm talking about faking having intercourse. How?
They showed us how they do it. Well explain it to me. You have to be on your stomach. You have to get your hand like in between your legs while you're on your stomach. And you have to get the schmeckle in your hand and just fucking stroke that thing. Your schmeckle? Wow, I've not heard that before. And the Johns think they're getting something when they're not even getting any. So I am going to do with you. The real final argument that used to be in the. A world called jury selection that I intend to do in that case, okay? I look out at this room full of people and I say to myself, they are here to be brainwashed by me.
Repeat after me, dear. Okay. You folks are going to decide. Whether the defendant Is a sex trafficker Or whether he's an innocent person being falsely accused, which is what I intend to prove. Or whether he's an innocent person being falsely accused, which is what I intend to prove. Now let's continue. Do any of you good people see red when you hear the word sex trafficker? Any stealth jurors here? Anybody with a hidden agenda? What about memberships? You ever heard of a group called Fair Girls?
Anybody here read Nicholas Kristof's columns? He has an obsession with sex. And the topic of sexual slavery and people being compelled to do things against their will. Neither of which, I must tell you, applies in this case. By the way, did I tell you the girls, if they're called, they're going to be witnesses for the defendant? You get the idea, and that's how it's going to go.
Hi Hey Kim Hi Kim, I'm Marie Greenbergs. How are you? Lovely to meet you. Thanks for having me. This is our dining room. We have many parties here. How did you guys meet? We met in court. I was a court reporter. Okay. And Howard was an attorney. who worked for Legal Aid. And we just kind of like hit it off, and it's been some ride. And how long ago is that? That was 24 years ago. Wow. We're married 14. So Howard says that you helped style him. Oh, come on. Is that what he said?
Yeah. He never lets me style him. I wish every day he lets me style him. He has a great eye, but not for himself. So you obviously met Howard in his place of work. Yes. What do you think about his profession? He does his job very well, and he is not prejudiced at all. He just feels it. everyone should have a shot at being defended the right way. Does that bother you though if like somebody really is guilty and he's such a talented lawyer that he gets them off and then they walk free?
Does it bother me? Maybe, maybe two or three times it has, however the other times no. I've worked with so many lawyers in my life. None of them are like him. He grew up very differently. He's not angry about that. He's grateful about that. And I don't think many people can say that. Tell me a little bit about your upbringing. You were raised on the Lower East Side. That's true. We lived in a slum. It was three of us.
My father was mentally ill. My grandmother, who raised me as a mother and father, and me. My father was very violent. It was a daily occurrence for him to act out and beat up my spindly old grandmother. One time he snapped her forearm right in front of my face. When I was a child, what could I, you know, what can I. What can you do to really protect her? What could I do about it? I mean, our kids don't even know this shit. When I left, I got a full scholarship to Cornell University, which I promptly threw.
Away, then I floundered for many years. I met a gal and Learned along the way that her father was a mafia Don Okay, and mr. Giuliani's office handed up an indictment in the case that was captioned United States of America versus Badalamenti. A defendant in that case was my wife's, my then wife's father. Yesterday's arrests and charges reveal another heroin operation run by Sicilian immigrants using pizza parlors as a front for trafficking in large quantities of drugs. That case devolved in the public mind into something that was called the Pizza
Connection case. It became the longest federal trial. Up to that point in the history of the United States of America. But it was on that day, with the agents and the drug-sniffing dogs crawling all over me and the people I cared about that I vowed to become a criminal defense attorney. I was enrolled in Fordham Law School. Three months after graduating, I'm a staff attorney at the Legal Aid Society. You know, it's hard for me to be politically correct. But at the Legal Aid Society, they emasculate. Lawyers. Why did they do that? Because they're so concerned about preserving the record, trying the case for the appeal.
But lawyers who try the case for the appeal are gonna lose. How do you try the case? I try the case to win. I see. I left the legal ed side. I did fulfill my commitment. I went into private practice, whereupon Herbert Stern taught me how to become. a great trial lawyer. He wrote a series of books entitled Trying Cases to Win and I became him. Does it offend you when people suggest that you're like Saul? Because he is a bit of a sketchy character in some ways, as well as being quirky?
No, not at all. I don't need to cheat to win. I've got a method that seems to work and I can teach any lawyer to battle the government to a standstill when a paradoxes. We reached out to several of Howard's former clients about their experiences with him, and one, Jemps Felix, agreed to go on camera. Jemps was charged with felony possession of a weapon, a charge carrying up to 15 years in prison. Howard took the case to trial and came away with a full acquittal, despite the fact that the cops said Jemps had confessed to the crime.
I was facing 7 to 15 years. Wow. And basically he saved my life. He proved my innocence. when I was a teenager. I was convicted of possession of a weapon. I'm done with that part of my life, stuff like that. All I'm trying to do is just find a job, you know, have some kids, you know, live a regular life. I mean, but due to the fact of my past history, they try to frame me. Have you ever had any dealings with any lawyers previous to Howard?
Is he your first kind of, your first guy? He's the first lawyer I had money to pay for. My previous lawyer, any other case I had. I had like a legal aid and of course you know legal aid they work with the system. They get paid by you copping out. I mean I was fortunate enough to be able to pay Howard Greenberg to prove my innocence. When I was at trial he fought with the spirit of a warrior. He fought like I was his son. That's why I call him Godfather.
How did you meet Felix originally? How did. uh he find you his uh squeeze gave me a call and told me he needed a lawyer when you first met him what were your first impressions of him um did you think this is a good kid i thought he was a surly prick i didn't like him okay but i grew to love him okay if you thought he was a surly prick then why did you want to represent him because i if i take your money you get all of me That's why. And I want to win, okay? You have iced coffee? Yes, I do. Don't make it from dishwater. Does that happen a lot that you develop a sort of close personal relationship with your clients?
I just say. Subsequent? Yeah, no, it's not that. It isn't that at all. Okay. It's not at all personal. But it's a love and affection for someone whose life you save. So you've said that if someone pays you, they have your loyalty. I render service for money. You can threaten to kill me and my family. And I render service for money. That guy threatened to kill me and I got him acquitted. And that's just the way it is. Why? How do you reconcile that? Who do I fear? You're gonna take. You fear the greater, bigger system, the man. Right. And I can't blame a guy who's rotting in jail for saying anything. And the easiest target is the lawyer.
Okay? Come on. After spending more time with Howard, I developed a better understanding of his belief that everyone deserved a zealous defense. But a lot of his cases still really troubled me, and none more so than his defense of Levy Aaron. Back in 2011, Howard joined the defense team for one of the most shocking murder cases in recent New York history, in which the defendant, Levy Aaron, confessed to kidnapping, killing, and dismembering an 8-year-old boy. Attorney Howard Greenberg is ready to be hated for his client while trying to defend confessed child killer Levy Aaron. To understand the morality of defending someone who had confessed to horrible crimes, I reached out to New York ethics attorney Nicole
Hyland. I think it's important for people, lawyers and non-lawyers, to understand that real world ethics is not the same as legal ethics. There is some overlap, but there are a lot of things that lawyers are obligated to do and expected to do that. Really don't have to do with morality. A criminal lawyer is going to still defend a client even if they know the client is guilty. And so I can imagine that in certain situations where you have A defendant who's accused of
a really horrific crime, the public might feel there's something immoral about that, about staying silent when you know your client is guilty. You know people always say, oh how can you defend those guilty people and I have clients accused of terrible, awful, disgusting, horrible things and that's my job to defend them. Somebody's got to defend them. You know an oncologist's job is to beat the cancer and a criminal defense attorney's job is to be the prosecutor.
A client is entitled to zealous advocacy. There might be something that's said or done that the outside world may take offense to, but that is a defense attorney rightfully fighting for their client. When Howard first got on the Levy-Aaron case, one of his defenses he decided was going to be that Levy-Aaron, who was in a fairly ultra-Orthodox Hasidic community, that his defense was going to be that Potentially he was inbred and therefore that caused him to have some type of insanity that caused him to commit this horrible crime. And so at the time, Dov Heikin, who was a big part of the Jewish community in Brooklyn, was quite up in
arms to almost blame the Jewish community for actions of this one individual. He wants to defend Levi Aaron. He has every right to do that, but to attack. insult, degrade an entire community, my community, anybody's community. That's not what this case is all about. So I talked to Julie Rendleman. She was a tough son of a bitch as a prosecutor, I can tell you that. Oh really? And we had some knock down and drag out battles. What happened? Tell me about them. Well, primarily with the butcher of Bensonhurst, Levi Aaron.
Someone who I feel. Conceptually, I failed because he took a plea. And I'm used to winning cases. But the law says the defendant makes that call, not the lawyer. I believe that had we tried that case, he would have been found not guilty by reason of insanity. Because if he wasn't crazy, nobody's crazy. So you genuinely think he was insane? Don't you? You chop the little kid into pieces and put half of it in the freezer and the other half in the garbage. You tell me.
Oh, thanks a lot, Deb. You're welcome. What do you think would have been the best outcome? He went to trial and then what was the. There was no good outcome. He would have wound up in the loony bin for the rest of his life. Right. Had he gone to trial, it would have been fantastic for me. Because the story would have been in the papers every single day for three months. It would have been great. What fantastic business for you. Fantastic publicity. Is something like the Levy-Aaron case a big money case for you, or was that more like a profile thing?
I did that case for free. Really? And the reason I did it for free was because I had read in the paper that the judge was giving the defense attorneys a hard time. Has there ever been a point where you're up in court where you feel like maybe you're almost crossing the line? I just stick to the advocacy, you know? So maybe if you say the complaining witness is a lying sack of shit, that frightens people. If you say the complaining witness got what he deserved, that frightens people. Do you feel like to be a good criminal defense attorney you have to push boundaries?
Up to the line at the very. At the bare minimum, up to the line. Sometimes over the line, depending on the case, and depending on the cause. Are you ready? You're psyched? I am loaded for bare. I am ready. The reason for my appearance here today is I am slated to start. A high-profile sex trafficking trial. A trial that I frankly expect to win by way of the first three paragraphs of words that I utter to the jury.
It's pretty cocky. It's a method that seems to work, dear. So you're gonna give me a bit of a taster of your opening argument? Yeah, I'll give you the whole thing. Yeah, I'm excited to hear it. I'll be standing at a lectern. How about this? Want me to get behind a rock, treat it as a lectern? Yeah, look, that's a good one. And then we'll go? So I'm going to start with the steeple gesture of my hands. And the next time I change a movement, I'll shift to arms away from the body.
And then when I really get going, I'll start gesticulating, like Donald Trump. By the way, before I get to anything to do with the hand gestures. When the judge invites me to get up and do this, the first thing I do is freeze in my chair. And I may freeze for up to 30 seconds. And the reason for that is there's no more attention-getting thing you can do in a courtroom than sit absolutely still. That is to say, freeze. To the point where I want people to be uncomfortable wondering, what is he waiting for? Then I rise slowly and then I move briskly to the lectern. Just imagine me moving briskly to the lectern. Then I relish the moment with this gesture.
I am relishing the moment and then I get out the sledgehammer and start to wield it. So I will say as follows. Whatever else was this fax pattern, it was not sex trafficking. And I will prove that this fax pattern was made of hookers rendering sexual favors, if that, for U.S. currency to Johns, and that is all. Johns, incidentally, are among the dumbest people walking the face of the earth. The young women, I will prove, worked as hoes, which is what they call themselves, because they wanted to. And if that.
Appalachian is good enough for them, it's good enough for you, and it's good enough for me. And I will prove that they came and went as they pleased. I will prove that the words, only for example, I will fucking kill you, or their equivalents, are protected free speech. No matter how hard or soft the half-baked prosecution expert witness tries to ram it. uninformed opinion down anyone's throat, it will not change the fact that by their own lights, the girls are not quote victims unquote.
You may well, as the case unfolds, witness the spectacle of the supposed victims seated in the audience, backing us up and cheering us on. It's not your job to render a verdict that tells them how to live their lives. If they want to sell their bodies to the tune of ten. To 20,000 a week, then so be it. In the end, it's a very simple case. Promoting prostitution, and that is all, does not equal sex trafficking. And anyone with a half a brain knows it. I'm going to ask you to return a verdict of not guilty on each and every count of sex trafficking.
It's the only fair, proper, justified verdict the evidence in the case will support. And I'm going to pause. I'm gonna look at each one of these people and then I'm gonna say and I think we understand each other and that's how it's done. There is no such thing as a dead case. Hey Felix, smile you're on candid camera. Alright kid, you know I love you. Who's your daddy? They put mayonnaise on every fucking thing. I can't eat this shit. I'll wrap it up and give it to my wife. Get us in there, yeah Hey, getting back at me.
What kind of fucking camera is this? Squeeze the button. I took a bunch. Yeah, she was clicking. Is that how it works? Yeah. No need for a big flash. Right. How about a little flash? No flash. Hey.
