32:28
You have become, if I may say so, enamored with the people that make up our the anonymous heroes who on a day-to-day basis are working tirelessly to make this country function better, work better. How did that come about? The civil servants. The civil servants, which is different from what's on cable news right now, right? It's all politics. Yes. And those people are being elected to run the government filled with the civil servants. That's right. And mostly they don't know about the government. And that's that's what got me interested when it came about when
Trump the first time Trump was elected. Um and he fired his transition team right after he was elected. It was like 550 people who supposed to go in and learn about the government for him. And I thought he doesn't know anything about it. It's like the dog caught the bus and now the dog has to drive the bus, right? and you would think the dog would want the instruction manual. And when he fired this mechanism, I thought it's kind of cool. I can go in and my readers will know more about what he's supposed to be running than he does. And so that like you will know about the Department of Energy, right? And when I did that, when I got in, I was shocked by the quality of the people I kept meeting. I was like there is the stereotype of the lazy bureaucrat,
you know. I'm sure they exist. There two million people in there. But over and over two million I mean two million federal workers, right? And over I found these people who were like working 70our weeks and being paid 40 and were doing wild stuff. I mean everything from like chasing loose uh loose nukes to like inventing science at whole sciences to it was one thing after another to inventing uh the science to find people that fall off of boats, right? I mean insane. Yeah. know, it's one thing after another. And much of what they did as a group, yes, they're sort of constitutionally incapable of telling their story. They like don't know. They're the opposite of Trump. They don't know how to like advertise what they do and they're not
allowed to. So, so it was they can't name their desk after themselves. They can't do any of that. They can't. So they're it's they are they just assume now at this point that if they're getting noticed it's for a bad reason, right? Like it's it's we have they're so demoralized that way. Do they feel the demonization is that they know not to call attention to themselves. So the great challenge with them when you're with them is to get them, you know, they're like dogs that have been kicked a little too often like you just to calm them down so that they will tell their story. But when you get into it, I mean that the reason I've stuck around is that they are amazing characters. And
when this administration came in and set out to traumatize them, the new Trump administration in 2024, it he came he went about it differently this time. This book is much more about the hostile takeover. This is more about Doge. That's it's Doge and Doge plus other stuff. And it's it's sort of like asking the reader to understand what's going on by what they've driven out. Like it's sort of like a meteor hit the planet and the habitats have changed and some species no longer exist. They can't and each species that went extinct uh went extinct for a different reason. And these were these are different sort of different people in different functions of the government who used to do things
like I don't know stop your tax returns from being weaponized against you. You know this stuff that we just take for granted uh is all of a sudden no when they it's like part of a big power grab. They have essentially they're trying to politicize a nonpartisan workforce and that's going to you know result in a very different kind of government. I mean, when you like, would you rather have your air traffic controller? Um, I love this game. Go ahead. Yes. Would you rather have this person selected on the basis of their ability to actually land a plane safely or would you rather them have to go through a loyalty test to Donald Trump before they get the job? And you know me, I'm a woke liberal. I just
rather they all be lesbians. I don't care about the I don't care about the it's like one thing after another. It was amazing that what I found so fascinating about this maybe the story of the Institute of Peace will be uh revoly. It's a hostile takeover. It reads like somebody stormed a foreign power stormed an embassy. Yeah. On the people who work for them in the government. Yeah. No, no. It's it's it's strange to me. I mean, I think it's just that they were able to do this the amount of both damage and the sort of like the seizure of power. Um, the only reason it's been allowed is that I think people just haven't paid
much attention to what the government does and how it functions, right? Like that but this I mean the difference between Donald Trump 2 and Donald Trump won Donald Trump he didn't care like he didn't he was indifferent ignorant. Well, they came with a battle plan and this time he wants to run not just the government he's supposed to run. He's grabbing all kinds of stuff that he's not supposed to run. I mean they're they're all these the Smithsonian Kenn institute of peace, right? I mean, had you ever heard of the Institute of Peace? I did not know that we were even looking towards that.
Yes. It is now called the Donald J. Trump Institute of Peace, but it was there's a guy in there. It's a crazy story. He evacuates the building and he locks himself in the building to keep the Doge guys from getting the keys close. Can I correct? Yes. CLOSE. YOU'RE CLOSE. THANK YOU. SO, SO, so yeah, you're very close. That the security guard the that story speed read. Yeah. The story that story is told through the eyes of the security guard who's who is defending the building. That's right. Yeah. and he has a phone and he can lock down various parts of the building. Yes. And when Doge actually blackmails his
private security firm and turns them so that they're invading the building rather than protecting it. Yes. They all end up in a wing of the building and he hits a button and all of a sudden it's home alone. They're they're locked in and they're calling their moms and saying we're locked in. Can you come help? and you know they're calling their bosses and eventually the hero uh calls the DC police because he thinks we've got the building by the way is not a government building. It's it's like it's your house. It's a privately it's a private it's a nonprofit. They own the building. So Doge is invading an a private house and taking it. Um and it's not particularly part of the government.
No, no, it's not part of the government. I mean it's it's Congress. Look, it gets funding from Congress, but it was designed to be kept at arms length from political control, right? And so, so he calls the DC police, "Come get the trespassers. Come get the invaders." And the invaders, by the way, are like three 20-year-olds, muskrats. Yes. Like little black ties that just want to get in there, turn it upside down. Sneakers, right? Sneakers and little black t-shirts. But they But the DC police, they've been flipped. And so when they come they take this they march the security guy out. So basic I open with that because as the guy security guy pointed out he said you
know this all starts by them getting control of all the guns that it didn't look like there was no one fired a shot. Didn't look like a violence. By the way there are guns in the basement of the Institute of Peace. A little like not the basement where they got they've got a cache of guns in the Institute of Peace for some reason. Yeah. Well the security firm keeps them there. The reason they keep them there is this is against the law in DC to take your gun home from work. So they have to leave them behind. That's actually why they're there.
Really? Who knew? But uh you're not leaving with your gun, are you, Bill? No, I left it in the thing. But I it is when you do take this 2 million person workforce and you say all of a sudden you don't work for it's not an oath to the constitution. It's not you work for the country. You work for this person who's in the White House. It changes the way the whole government works. Everything is different and each function is different in a different way. But you're it's the change is like profound and you will you know you will feel it. You'll feel like a degradation of the place. Well, you make the unbelievable. So part of this is also you know it's project 2025 and it's which is the architect of
that is this guy Russell vote. Vote I call him VA from the voice but vote. So you tell this incredible story about the NIH. Yeah. And a gentleman at the NIH, Francis Collins, used to run the NIH. Used to run the NIH, who is identified as a blocker. They identify people that are blocking progress, right? Francis Collins. Yeah. Explain how that all comes full circle with Project 2025 and Russell Boo. So Francis Collins is a threat to this new administration because he is a every
senator respects him. I mean he can speak for science that and he is one he's one of been there forever one of those people if they kind of try to do things to the science he can go talk to people right um so but when they come in he's just got his lab he doesn't have any official authority and they whack him right away it's like a bullet to the back of the head and the kind of cool thing about the story though it's distressing is that though he knows he's been whacked he doesn't know who did the whacking he like he doesn't know who issued the order and so he there's a kind of murder mystery and he wants to find out.
He wants to find out. But what you need to know about Francis Collins is that among the many things that he has done in his career is he early in his career he found the genetic cause for cystic fibrosis and through government funding. Of course, of course, the NIH has been returned like many dollars for every dollar invested and it's it's cured diseases and all the rest. And the chief suspect, the most likely person to have whacked Francis Collins is Russell Vote. But tell me the story. Yeah, let me finish. I was going to tell you. Let me finish. Russell votes child has cystic fibrosis. That's right. So you have we have reached a point in our politics. That's right. Where there is no humanity, where it's
so tribal that they don't even think. And it is this kind of darkness runs right through the story that people who are getting whack in the book are often people the people who are doing and the people doing the whacking they have some relationship but it's not being acknowledged. And it's even worse than that in some respect because the research that he began with cystic fibrosis and then they brought in other partners. They actually created a drug treatment recently. Yeah. that allows people with cystic fibrosis to take this drug that Francis Collins through this government research helped develop.
She takes this drug and her life is safe. Yeah, that's right. From that drug. Yes. If she had gotten cystic fibrosis born 10 years earlier, she would probably not be here. It would it's, you know, you're gonna you're likely to die from cystic fibrosis up until very recently. And so that's right. So the man who triggered the process that leads to the cure to the disease that this other man's child has is Yes. That's the relationship. And so it's um I mean I think we're in a very dark place, right? We're in a pl we're in a place where you kind of it's the people under assault. Yes. The really good ones are the best among us. They are there not but for themselves. They're not there to get famous. They don't tell their story,
right? They don't get paid much. They're there because they figured out that the key to their lives is serving other people and they do it ve the best of them do it very well. The idea that these people are under assault is a shame. I mean, and I think we that astonishing and I think one of the things you're feeling right now is that I mean that the that there the darkness of people not knowing not being able to name who the real villains are. villainizing people that are literally searching for cures that your daughter may have are being called the villains and the parasites in the name of one thing and this is the acquisition of power. It's like it's all about the power. And you know, there's this there's this line in 1984 Orwell's
book where he says like, "How do I know if I have power?" And it isn't that I can make you do whatever I want you to do. Uh because you might want to do it anyway. It's I can make you suffer. And the cruelty that runs right through this story is that it's like it's reminding the people in power that it's it's a kind of psychological thing. They the need to feel powerful. He's even said I mean Steven Miller has said we're not doing it like might makes right. Like a literal throwback to you remember all those ways that government used to work back when there were world wars and back when the continent was a bloody mess. We're going back to that.
Yeah. What an incredible uh you know from we're a shining city on a hill moving towards American exceptionalism to hey you remember feudalism. Yeah. No I know and it takes a while for the country to wake up I think but I think the country is waking up. It's like it did I hope so. Yeah because this is not a bright future this path. Have you interviewed? Is there any recognition amongst those like Russell Vault or I mean some of the Doge guys have apparently had a reconsideration of what they were doing there. First of all, they said
we're saving $2 trillion. Then it turned out they said they saved 10% of that. Turns out most of that's even You know, they didn't even do the thing they said they were going to be. They were never going to do the thing they said they were going to do. They weren't even because it wasn't about that. It was about traumatizing the workforce. It was about creating a smoke screen for seizing the power. Russell Vote said it. He said, "I want them to feel like they're parasites." He said that. Yeah. So, the wild thing about the Doge kids. I mean, they were all the mo the active ingredient in Doge was young men ages 19 to like 28 that the ones most of them
came in just they just wanted to be with Elon Musk, you know, and they would just do whatever he said, right? But there were a couple who actually started to ask some questions and it was interesting those people because that one of them ends up in the book. He comes in with curiosity, not with contempt. And he's the I think he's the only one who got fired. His name was Sahil. Yeah. Right. He came in with curiosity and not contempt. And they were like, you know, you do you know do you know how hard it was to get fired from Doge? You could make up the college you went to on your resume. You could be a Nazi. You could no you could have a like a history of sexual abuse revealed and JD Vance himself would ride to the rescue.
But if you said that this guy did he a reporter called him after he'd been in the government for a few weeks and he says to the reporter I'm kind of surprised the government is not quite as inefficient as I thought it was. THAT'S WHAT YOU COULDN'T SAY. You couldn't Yes. That was the thing. That's the line. You can't that and Hitler was right. Youthful indiscretion. Yes. Right. Government seems to work. Okay, get out. A lot of these people like their jobs and are good at them. He said things like that and got him in a lot of trouble. So, but that guy, he's a great character. Actually, that guy came in hoping to do some good. And when Doge
washed out, someone called him back and he came back and uh and you have an app on your phone that will allow you to do your taxes on an app because it's going to happen because of him. And so, he has actually figured out something. So there's but isn't that the tragedy that so when you think about look one of the reasons why project 2025 happened is people were dissatisfied that the government was no longer reflecting and triaging their more immediate needs and there is ridiculous uh cascading plumbing and wires in there that need to be addressed. Some of these people seem to have the skills. What a tragedy that they weren't actually applying that to the real function of it.
Yeah, that's right. It was very There is a need to go in and crush the thing. There's a constant need. What is hopeful is that there are people who exist who want to go in and still fix it. I mean, I don't think I didn't come away from this feeling like, oh, we're doomed. I came away feeling like it's good to know that actually the spirit of the country is in these people, these people who try to stop the bad things from happening and people who want to go in and fix it. And I think like the politics, our politics has gotten so out of touch with the culture. Like Americans aren't like our politics basically, right? And the minute it becomes enough attention gets paid to this, I think that it gets fixed
that I think that there is a there's a way out of this. But you got to listen to the right people. I mean, and you got to listen to people who are there for reasons other than just themselves. It's so impressive that you're able to stare into the guts of this and come out with optimism. You know, I hear from a lot of young people, one young person um who's in the audience tonight. Yeah. And he said, "How do you remain optimistic?" And I said, "I don't know, but I bet Michael does." And that answers that is you've seen the power of And that's what this kid's going to be.
Like they're they haven't been corroded yet. They still believe in the possibility of uplift. That's right. and it look we are not our politics is so strange now but we're a nation of problem solvers we're philanthropic communities form very easily people don't want to be the noise on TV it's not sustainable and the minute this thing and you're feeling it that the minute this mechanism the government starts to become really politicized it becomes something very different from what it's been for a ve for a hundred years you're going to feel it every which way you're not going to be able to eat the you're not going to be able to drink the water. You're not going to want to get on an airplane. You know,
people right now say they don't trust the government, but they trust the government in their behavior. They own Treasury bonds. They, you know, they are still basically trusting the government to prevent bad things from happening. Right. And the minute they sense that's that's being eroded, that function is being eroded, I mean, I think there's a culture waiting to leap into action. That's right. And hopefully there is an electoral price. There's two things that have to happen. And there have to be an electoral price to pay for this kind of recklessness and cruelty. And the second thing is if you are fortunate enough to be on the beneficial end of that electoral change, you better get your together and start governing.
That's right. and the I think the other thing that's going on and it's it's subtle is there's a kind of narrative war like Republicans have been telling a story for a very long time that these that all the people in government are just like they're in unnecessary right waste fraud abuse all that stuff the other story has not been told and I think that telling that story like making a point of explaining what this government does is so important Like someone should do that. Someone should put it in a book. It's fabulous. It really is. And I so appreciate it. I urge you to get it for blockers. Our best storyteller, Michael Lewis.
