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I'm Steve Harson. I represented England in 63 tests and 58 one-day international matches, and won the Ashes twice with my country. And I am Leo McKenzie. I have experienced life both as a professional boxer and as a Premier League footballer. In this program, we interview former elite athletes about their transition from their sports careers to civilian life and the struggles that followed. Both Leon and I have had our battles dealing with everyday life since leaving the sports world. During this series, we will talk to several personalities who have experienced their own problems after their time in elite sports. Because what happens is that trans activists have a very vindictive way of making your life
extremely difficult. So the moment they find out I'm going to do an event, they just call the venue, they call the company and make things very, very difficult for that company. And even if the company agrees with me, they don't want the problems. You can't pretend that biology doesn't exist. And in the world of sports, we have to base the rules on reality. We cannot base rules on feelings. How do we do that? It's impossible, because to begin with, feelings are self-reported. So one person's feelings can be much more than another person's feelings, you know? So ultimately, you have to base the rules, and I think you have to base the policies for everything, really on statistics and reality.
My mom died from hepatitis C. My mom was given contaminated blood. He had gallbladder surgery in the 1970s. In those days, they literally gave him blood as a matter of course. You have to remember that there are 30,000 people who have been affected by hepatitis C, you know, whose lives were cut short by something that was given to them by the National Health Service. Well, let's give a big, warm welcome to our guest tonight here on Talk Sport. It is a great pleasure to introduce you to one of the great names in British swimming, the Olympic athlete, broadcaster, author and activist, Sharon Davis.
Ah, thank you very much. It's lovely to be here. It's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you for coming. It's a pleasure. Sharon, you retired from swimming and competitive swimming in '90. Yes, I did. I tried to pay you not to say one, didn't I? No, it didn't work. , you've filled so much of your life since you retired at that age, which we'll talk about later, but can you tell us the reason why you retired at such a young age?
Yes, swimming is quite an intense sport. I mean, all sports at an elite level are intense, but with swimming, I think like in gymnastics, you start very, very early and get on that path pretty quickly. So, at 10 years old, I was already a county champion and went to my first Olympic Games at 13. By then, I was training almost six hours a day, two in the morning in the pool, two in the afternoon and two hours of land training in between. And I think after Moscow, when I won my medal, I just needed a break, you know? I just needed to be a normal 18-year-old girl and go out and do some silly things. But you simply couldn't do that in those days. So I went to college in the United States, I went to Berkeley, to San Francisco, but to
keep my scholarship I had to swim. And then I decided: well, I'm not sure I really want to do this. My parents separated and my mother was going through a difficult time. So I returned home, I had two younger brothers and I was offered a role on television to host a show. I was paid 40 pounds for doing that show. And then they called me a professional. Give us a clue. Yes. And that was it. And you know what was frustrating for me? It was at exactly the same time that Steve Ovett and Seb Coe were competing all over Europe. They had trust funds. They were paid very well. They were buying their houses and cars and had a
lovely lifestyle, and I was banned from competing for 40 pounds. So, I mean, it was really frustrating. It wasn't really a " I want to retire now" kind of thing. It was a " I need a break now" kind of thing. And then they didn't really let me come back until they created the trust funds in '88. So I was already a bit older, probably "out of fashion" as they say. But it wasn't over. So that's why I came back. Yes. You weren't finished. And you know, we talk about parenting, different kinds of parenting, but it's also what you sometimes miss on a human level. I've always said that in cricket I probably missed out on things between the ages of 20 and 30, more than in
other sports, as I believe happens with swimming and individual Olympic sports. Did you feel like you missed out on a childhood, since Olympic athletes probably miss out on adolescence? Yeah. I mean, I think when you're in there, you feel like you're missing out on things because you miss silly stuff like the TV shows from the night before that everyone at school is talking about, you know? And at that moment, when you're a teenager, it seems very important, but when you grow up a bit, you realize how unimportant it really is, compared to all the opportunities I had. So I always tried to see the big picture, and I must say I'm quite competitive, and surprise, surprise, you know? We
're all at this table, right? So, for me, I really enjoyed winning races and I knew I had to work hard to win. And I always felt that if it was about going to an extra party, traveling a little more, dedicating more time to studying, or whatever was necessary, that could wait until after I finished my sports career. And we must also remember, you know, that we are talking about a few years ago, when swimming was considered to be for very young people. Now, thank God, it's for older people because we have adequate financial support and people can take breaks. We even see Adam, you know, competing in what would be his fourth Olympic Games, possibly in Los Angeles. So now it's very different, but back then it was about
getting in fast, working incredibly hard, and burning out pretty young, to be honest. Um, regarding your relationship with your dad, Terry. Yes. Um, from what I hear, he was strict. Did you struggle with that at such a young age, with such severity? Yes, absolutely. I mean, Dad was very strict. He was a good coach. My dad, by the way, turns 90 in January and he's still training. Wow. TRUE. He keeps driving, he keeps going to the pool four times a week, you know? In Hemel Hempstead, um, yeah, I mean, that's how tough my dad was. When I was 11 years old, I fell out of a tree because I was such a tomboy. I put up my
arms to protect myself and heard two huge cracks. She was alone in the forest. So I picked up my watch that had flown off, walked home, went into the kitchen and said, "Dad, I think I've broken my arm." And he said, "Well, for God's sake, Shan , support it with the other one." I told him, "No, I think I've broken that one too." So I broke both bones in both arms, and they put them in casts. And in those days, they would put you in a cast from your wrist to your shoulder. After a week, my dad turned around and said, "Well, the East Germans haven't taken a week off and neither have the Americans." So I wrapped them in Tesco plastic bags and went to train with both arms broken.
Wow. Yes. For three months. But I wasn't in pain or anything. You know, they just put a float on me and I just kicked. And the following year I injured my knee and he just tied my legs together. And then, the following year, I made it to the Olympic Games. So who can say it really didn't work? But yes, no, he was extremely tough and I think he now regrets being as tough as he was, because probably one of the reasons she was desperate to stop after Moscow was that he had been very intense. You know, if I was sick, I was rarely allowed to take a day off. You know, I trained through the whole mononucleosis because he didn't know it was mononucleosis. And that was just before the Moscow Olympics.
TRUE. I'm going to talk about that. Um, but the Montreal Olympics, when I heard that, I said, "Oh, wow. I did n't know you competed in the Montreal Olympics." So my dad competed in the 1976 Montreal Olympics because he fought against Sugar Ray and Elvis. We would have been in the same dining room. So you would have been in the. I can't believe it. I was like old Corbett, wandering around. I'm telling you. So I said, "Oh, that's a very nice thing to say." So yeah, how was that for you, because it was quite an experience since you were young, right? It was, you know, but again, people think that makes it difficult. Actually, it makes it easy because when you're very young and have those kinds of experiences, you know, you have a lot of
future ahead of you, there's no pressure. Because, in the end, every time I went into the water I swam faster, since I was simply growing and getting stronger all the time. And I knew that it didn't really matter. It was simply an amazing experience for me to get that, you know, under my belt and learn. Um, it wasn't like you'd expect anything in Montreal at 13, but you would in Moscow. So, if you ask me which was harder, Moscow was a million times harder than because you represented England at 11 years old. Yes. Yes, I did my first international competition at 11. That's incredible. And there were, like, two bronze medals at the European Championships at 14?
Behind the East Germans? So, you know, if it hadn't been for the East Germans, I would have had gold medals in 1978 at the age of 14 because I was born that year. Good. Happy New Year. I mean, it 's a great year. My entire career was really marked by the nemesis of the East Germans. Yes. All my silver and bronze medals are behind the East Germans. Each one of them. Was Oh, God. All the time. So it's not like we did n't know, because behind the scenes or in public too. Well, next to the pool, you know, next to the track. I mean, they particularly excelled in swimming, athletics, and rowing; Those are the three things they completely dominated. And I was doing a little
research for you, because when you mentioned some of the things, I knew you would obviously talk about this. But before the period of time when they started filling these poor young women with testosterone, uh, in '68 and '72, they won like 25 or 26 medals; In Moscow, they won 126. Wow. And then, when the wall fell and things went back to normal again. In '96 they went back to 65. So, and it was predominantly in women's events. So at the Moscow Olympics, when I won my medal, they took six 1s, 2s, 3s. Yeah. I mean, it was so obvious. And they weren't winning medals in the men's events. They were only winning in the women's categories. And they brought people to the Olympic Games or the European Championships that we had never seen before.
And suddenly they would arrive and we would say, " Who is this person?" And they broke the world record. Yes. So it was extremely obvious what was happening and very frustrating that nothing was being done about it. So, you kind of knew, you know, you kind of knew it deep down, but how does that make you feel then? How did that make you feel at that moment, being so young too? Just incredibly disappointed, you know, by the IOC in particular, um, by, you know, the British Olympic Association, just by anyone who was supposedly in a position of authority who could have done something about it. I never had a problem with the young girls because, I mean, you know, they were pawns in all of this, and since then I've met many of them and most of them are very sick. Um,
several of them have died because they were simply given these horrible, you know, saranabol, testosterone without consequences, without thinking about what that was going to do to them, um, you know, in the future. So, they were pawns in, you know , a state-run doping program. So, it's not an individual. I have no problem with Petra Snider. I have a problem with the IOC for allowing this to continue for so long. You started swimming again after you retired. What was the decision about returning? I felt like it was never really over, you know. So, I was sharing an apartment with the wonderful Mary Peters, who was like a grandmother to everyone in the world of sports.
Yes. And Mary told me, and this was in 1988, I think, at the Seoul Olympics, and Mary told me, "Don't spend the rest of your life saying, 'What if And I thought, "God, I'm almost 28, Mary." You know, and I've been out of the water for almost nine years. You know, it's a long time to have been out of competitive sports. And she simply said, "But don't say what if, Sharon, if you still have things you want to do, go and do them." So, I went back into the water again . And God, it was difficult. It was, you know and but they allowed me to have a trust fund then, so I could continue paying my mortgage and, you know, pay the bills and so on and so forth. Nothing ridiculous, but enough to keep going.
And we didn't have a lottery until a few years later. Um, but they allowed me to get sponsorship and that helped. And then I did, yes, I did some European Championships, the World Championships and other Olympic Games. I didn't return home with any medals. I returned home with a husband. mean, you know, no, you just fall in love with who you fall in love with, right? You know, Derek was very famous for tearing his hamstring and, you know, his father somehow getting involved in the race, and I hadn't swum as well as I wanted to. And we were simply feeling sorry for each other. Everyone else was having a great time and we were just sitting there complaining, and we were the only ones who could actually hear ourselves
complaining. And then it started from there. So that's where they met, in fact? Wow. Yes. Um, I mean, and obviously, you know, it was a mixed relationship. There were some problems that came with that. Not from someone we knew or cared about, but there was an organization called Combat 18 at that particular time, based I think in Denmark or Sweden or somewhere like that. And then they sent bombs to me, to Paul Ince, um, and I think to Frank Bruno, you know, people who were in mixed relationships. So, I mean, that was 35 years ago. Yes, it was pretty much like that. I remember being quite young and, as a mixed-race child, um, I knew that my mom and dad were
pretty indifferent, especially in those times, the 80s, and that was quite a lot. So I just remember, yes. I never saw colors. I mean, I was involved in sports from a very young age. I still can't see. It's just.it's just irrelevant to me, you know, because I was in that lovely, wonderful sporting environment where everyone was judged solely on how well they did in the pool, on the track, in the ring, you know, wherever. Color, religion, everything was irrelevant to me, and I am so grateful to have grown up in that environment. Um, but yeah, and he was just funny, you know, Derek was just funny. It made me laugh.
Can we go back to 1980, the Moscow Olympic Games? You missed out on the gold, um, because the competitor you were swimming against, um, illegal doping, which was very publicized. Um, you've been, you know, a great activist, you know, against trans women, biological men competing in women's sports. Is that what fuels your passion and activism because of what happened to you? That's how it is. That's a big part of why I'm speaking out, you know, because there was a whole generation of women who lost out during that time period. And I had many friends who came in, you know, fourth and fifth behind three East German women, and their
entire lives would have been different. You know, we had two in swimming who came fourth behind three East Germans and they would have been Olympic champions and everyone would know who they are, but nobody knows who they are. And that's why it was extremely unfair. Um, and I guess I'm programmed to be fair now. And my position has never been against anyone. You know, I want everyone to participate in sports. Let them participate. Sport has been in my life all my life and I love it. And I would fight for anyone's right to play sports. But the main priority must be that it is safe and fair. So safety first, you know, in any form of contact sport. Then justice. And then we worked on inclusion. We cannot allow inclusion to take precedence over
everything else because, otherwise, what is the point of sport? And the thing is, that does n't affect men's sports. It is only women's sport that really has to give in. Now, in the world of sports, women receive 5%. That's all we get. TRUE? So, being 51% of the world's population, we receive 5% of the money involved in sports. So we already have a pretty unfair deal. Um, and then to be told that we couldn't even have a fair sport was extremely difficult to accept. And when the IOC changed its rules in 2015, they didn't consult a single elite female athlete Oh. Not one. Oh. And when they tried, when they consulted their athletes in 1998 about whether to continue with the sex tests, 84% said yes, please, and they still stopped them.
If you could go back, what would you have said to the IOC then? I do n't think they listen to anyone. You know, I mean, I don't have much time for the IOC. It is a group of 100 people who are members of the IOC and the IOC thinks that the IOC is run for them. It is not designed for athletes. I mean, I'm really sad that Seb didn't win the presidency, because he would have put athletes first. And that's what should be happening, but it's not Why are there so many negative reactions to what you're really trying to say? Because we're supposed to be nice, aren't we women? And we're supposed to give up our things, and yet, who's being kind to women? Who's being kind to our girls? So, I've received a lot of stories, as you can imagine. And one of the most
heartbreaking was a mother who called me and said, "Please help me. My daughter just got home from school. She's 11 years old. She loves sports. The school decided to have a mixed-gender sports day, with combined races all day, because they had a seven-year-old child who identified as a girl. And not a single girl won a competition on sports day." And she got home and just didn't know how to motivate her daughter, who wanted to stop playing sports. And any sensible person would say, "Wait a minute, this just isn't right." So let's find a different way to be inclusive, because sacrificing women's sport is not fair. So, my thing was never
trying to forbid anyone from doing anything. It was simply a matter of saying, look, this is for women and girls and we must protect it because we are biologically different and cannot perform in the same way. So, seeing Paris last year, for me, was literally criminal negligence. Going back to the 1980 Olympic Games, you know what was going on. Yes. And you'll be on the podium. What was going through your mind when Petra received her gold medal and you received your silver medal? Because you must have had some idea of what was happening, even though there was nothing you could do about it. Yes. I mean, I knew what was going through your mind. Can you remember?
Um, part of me was a little relieved because it had been very intense getting to Moscow. You must remember that there had been all kinds of boycotts. They had threatened not to go. You know, I had spent four years training. My parents had made enormous sacrifices. And Mrs. Thatcher was trying to say, "Well, we shouldn't all go. We're going to continue trading with Russia because, you know, because Russia had invaded Afghanistan, but we're just going to stop our athletes from going to the Olympics, even though we're going to continue trading, guys. We're just going to use you to sacrifice you." And to their credit, the British Olympic Association said, " Well, you don't give us any money, so
we're going to go anyway." Well, some of the sports, you know, withdrew their athletes, but we were able to go. So, if you look at the London Olympic team, it was something like 550 athletes. For Moscow, we had 150. We had a tiny team. That's a lot to deal with, isn't it? You know, even at the ages when you go through those processes of winning medals and having your life changed. Yes. Life-changing accolades, and I suppose when you know there's a negative organization behind it and it's not really doing anything about it.
Mentally, those things can affect you when you feel Which isn't fair. Right. Yes. And I think that's the point, you know, literally if you cut me open, I'd have the word "fair" written right in the middle. Um, it's just that I'm wired that way now. I mean, I knew, you know, at my first Olympics, even back in 1976, I knew what was going on. And then, at every major international event, I was up against East Germans, and I knew it. So it was unfair, but I didn't have a choice. The choice was to quit my sport or just keep going. There were three East Germans in my Olympic final. I beat two of them, you know, and the world record set by the girl who beat me stood for almost 20 years. Um, and my
British record stood for 22. Um, you know, I was just doing the best I could, and I still love my sport, and I loved the Commonwealth Games. You mentioned two gold medals at the Commonwealth Games. It's still one of my favorite competitions because there weren't any East Germans. Yes. So I had, already You know, Canadians who were really good. I had Australians who were really good, but it was a level playing field. A fair competition. Yes. In 2021, I think the Times reported that there was a possibility of the silver being upgraded to gold. What was, I mean, what was the IOC's position then on the massive doping of the German athletes?
Yes, they don't want to change it. I mean, I did a documentary for Channel 4, I think it was Channel 4 or Channel 5, right after the wall fell. And I had access to the Stasi files and I had access to all these East German records, and it was heartbreaking. I was going to say that was terrifying, wasn't I Well, it was just heartbreaking. It was appalling. I mean, it really was. Um, I was able to go and, you know, talk to a lot of these German girls. I was able to go and talk to Petra through an interpreter. She'd had a young daughter, but she'd been told she couldn't have any more children because of all the drugs she'd been given.
It created huge Problems. Uh, she was taking numerous pills. So, um, you know, I took it all back to the IOC again. And I went to Switzerland with all this evidence, even with Petra saying, "Yes, you should have my medal." And they didn't want to hear anything about it because they would have had to admit they did nothing about it. And then they don't want to change it because, you know, it would really show their negligence. When you had that kind of meeting and made the documentary, how did you feel? Um, obviously she knows, you know, most people know it wasn't her fault. It's not her fault. So how did she respond to that, knowing it's not her fault? How did you respond? How did she? Well, she took out her medal and tried to give it to me.
And I said, "I can't accept your medal because it's not your medal I want." I want it corrected for everyone. I respect that, though. Yes. You deserve that. Yes. Several East Germans did that, in fact. They went back to the IOC with their medals and said that They should have given them to the right people, and the IOC sent them home. Sean, you said you lost a lot of valuable sponsorships when you started, you know, talking about these issues. How did it make you feel that people you'd worked so closely with decided to turn their backs on you?
The frustrating thing was that everyone privately agreed with me. Yes. As they still do now. But we've gotten to this point where people are afraid to speak the truth in all sorts of areas, and particularly in this one. So when we do surveys, you know, one of the things we tried really hard to do was get governing bodies to survey their members, because at the time they were surveying their members, it turned out that over 90 percent of people would say, "Yes, they should give fair sport to girls and women." But they were making these decisions without consulting their members. And then, if you asked them publicly, people felt they couldn't speak the truth because they were too afraid to speak it.
So I think I was in a position where I thought I couldn't live with myself if I didn't speak out. I didn't think it would affect my work as much as it did. Mhm. I mean, literally, just disappeared.Yeah. Everything. When you say overnight, can you elaborate on that? Is it like it was for a period of time? Well, I mean, literally, within the space of a few months, it just stopped. Everything stopped and stayed stopped. It's still stopped. So it's like being blocked.
No, although now we have globally, you know, athletics has stepped in and implemented sex tests. World boxing has implemented sex tests. I think world skiing just implemented them. Now we've protected the elite in most sports. Although I think it should be for everyone, not just the elite, because the elite is the 1%. So why don't the other 99% of women deserve fair sport too? Um, it hasn't come back yet because what happens is that trans activists have a very vindictive way of making your life extremely difficult. So at the moment When they find out I'm going to do an event, they just call the venue. They call the company. They
make things very, very difficult for that company, and even if the company agrees with me, they don't want the trouble. So, in response to that-because obviously that's what it is- they're going against what you're saying, but your point of view is from a competitive perspective. Absolutely, it's always been that way. It's not about, you know, preferences. you know, not even preferences, you know, what anyone wants to be. Do what you want. Be what you want, dress how you want, call yourself what you want. Be happy with how you see yourself. But in terms of a competitive point of view, I think that's the point you're trying to make, right?
Yes. Mine is, you know, you can't pretend biology doesn't exist. And in the world of sports, we have to base the rules on reality. We can't base the rules on feelings. How do we do that? It's impossible because, for starters, feelings are self-informed. So, one person's feelings can be much stronger than another person's feelings, you know? So, ultimately, you have to base the rules. And I think you really have to base policies for everything on statistics and reality. And then we have to find ways to be inclusive, fair, honest, and kind, and all those things that we should have in society. But we're also a democracy, and we shouldn't allow a small minority to ruin it
for all women and girls, because that's what they're doing right now What would you say to that kind of counterargument? Transgender people asking, you know, we identify this way, why can't we participate in such sports? Yes, my answer to that would be that, in sport in particular, and I'll speak from my own experience having been at major events in the Olympics , if we have a woman who identifies as a trans man, she will still choose to compete with women. If we have people who identify as non-binary women, as is the case in the Olympics, in both cases they still choose to compete with women, but a man who
identifies as trans wants to compete with women. So, if women can identify as trans men and still compete with women and nobody has a problem with that, why can't men who identify as women do the exact same thing? It's because there's an advantage to entering the women's sport. So, when World Aquatics decided to protect the women's category a few years ago- I think it was in 2022-they created an event at our first World Cup in Berlin for trans athletes in order to be inclusive. Guess how many showed up? Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, not a single one. Not a single trans athlete showed up to compete because it wasn't about inclusion, because they were already included. They could; they just had to
compete where they belonged. What they wanted was the advantage. They wanted- the Leah Thomases of this world didn't just want to compete. They wanted to compete in the women's races because that's where they could go from being 650th in the US to being number one. Yeah. That's the problem we have, and it doesn't affect men in the same way. So, Because you've been talking about this for a long time. 10 years. 2015 changed everything. So, where do you think all this is? And do you feel it's improving? Yes, of course it's improving. I mean, it's been like pulling teeth. You know, two steps forward and one step back. Um, and what happens is that we
've protected them. As I mentioned in elite sport, I mean, cricket was one of the worst, to be honest with you. It was really hard to get the ECB to protect female athletes. So what they 've done is protect the elite and just leave it open for everyone else. So, what about your juniors or your career paths or your recreational golf and tennis? It's the same thing, you know; I have female tennis players who say, "I'm being forced to play in a local tournament, one club against another, against two men on a mixed team." You know, and it's not fair, and I don't want to do This, and I'm not enjoying my tennis anymore, so I'm just going to retire. And again, we're back to the issue of women self-excluding because, generally,
we're not as outspoken or aggressive as men. So women just say, "Well, then I'll just quit." Yes. And that's why they're self-excluding all the time. So we're having to struggle to say, "What I don't understand is: how can we say that these women here deserve fair play because they're good enough, but these other women don't deserve fair play because they're not as good as those women?" " That makes no sense. That's outright sex discrimination. So you're a fighter by nature and continually. Yes. Yes, she is. Um, you want to take this even further than it already is? So, you want to go the legal route and fight it that way.
What are your plans for that? We have to. I'm passionate about girls getting involved in sport and getting the benefits I got from sport. And yes, we used to lose girls from sport at 14 or 15. Now we're losing them at 11. Yes. It's a real problem, you know. I want girls to get involved in sport and have fitness and health in their lives, because it's not just good for their bodies, it's really good for their minds. And we have an epidemic of mental health issues among our young people. So keeping them involved in sport is something I'm really passionate about. Football, for example, the federation has protected it, but the only reason they protected it was because of the insurance.
Yes. Basically, because of the ruling." The Supreme Court ruling that says in this country sex means biological sex meant their liability insurance was voided and invalidated, so if we have to go after every sport through insurance, that's what we'll do. Sean, how would you respond to trans rights activists who see your campaign as part of a broader pattern of anti-trans activism? I mean, they're entitled to their opinion, aren't they? You know, I mean, as you can hear from what I'm saying, everything I say is based on statistics, facts, and figures. They've responded again that there isn't a single piece of peer-reviewed science in the world that says you can eliminate the male physical advantage. Not one.
And there are thousands of pieces that say you can't And now we've taken away this whole thing about reducing testosterone to this or that level. You know, when they lowered it to 10 nanomoles and then to five, your average elite female athlete still has less than one nanomole of testosterone per liter of blood in her system. So, even when the They reduced it, but it was still five times what I have. And anyway, there isn't an independent testing system in the world. So it was all a waste of time anyway, because, you know who shows up to test them? Nobody. So, you know, it was a joke, all those different things that were going on.
There's no gray area in this. You have to say that the women's category will be based on biological facts. It's a biological woman. And then we have to create an open category, because what's also never talked about is women who identify as trans and who take testosterone. Where do they compete? But since women aren't men, nobody really cares, right? We're always worried about where men go, but where do women who identify as men and take testosterone go? That's why we need to have an open category, because then they have a place to go, too. Sharon, you've attended every Olympic Games since Montreal in 1976.
Well, you competed in three. Yes, I competed in three different decades. The '70s, the '80s and '90s, and then I've worked on 13 so far. So, from the Montreal Olympics And each one is different. Each one is so unique, you know? Whether it's the Sydney 2000 Olympics, which were the first green Games and the first ones where we had volunteers, and then, you know, London, without a doubt, was just fabulous in 2012. And obviously, I worked as an ambassador there, so it was really wonderful to do that and such a fabulous time to be in London. Moscow was a bit gray, I won my medal, very, very serious. Montreal, I was very young.
Barcelona was wonderful, you know? It was a. But that was. Yes. So, each one of them for me has a real personality. But what an incredible resume to have after the transition from swimming to then going on to, you know, being, and it's a privilege to have that microphone, you know. I get to put it in front of the swimmers when they're The first ones. It is. It's great. Yes. It's a great job. It is when you ask them nice questions. Yes. And you have to ask the tough questions too, don't you? Yes. I mean, I think the rewarding aspect of asking nice questions far outweighs the. I know. So, I had two like that in London in 2012. Michael Phelps
becomes the most decorated Olympian of all time. And my big eureka moment. I don't know if you have one, but I think most athletes have a kind of eureka moment as kids where you're watching sport and you say, I want to do that, you know? And so, for me, it was watching Mark Spitz in 1972 win his seven gold medals with his mustache and his big round medals. only like eight, but you know, I remember it quite vividly. And, uh, in 2012 in London, the BBC was the host broadcaster, so we were right at the beginning, which isn't normally the case, is it? Because normally we're. Right at the end because we didn't have any money. So I was right at the beginning; the only people next to us were NBC.
Michael wins his 18th gold medal, but of course it's in the middle of the night in the United States, and they come up to me and say, "Do you want to talk to him?" "So I get to put a microphone in front of Michael Phelps when he becomes the most decorated Olympian of all time and I ask him the first question, which was really, really cool. Better than that, right? Really cool. Yeah. And then the next day, I put a microphone in front of Rebecca who has just, you know, not won. She's won another bronze medal. So, she's made four Olympic finals. She's won four
medals. Unbelievable. She thought she'd let the whole country down because she'd won a gold in Beijing. She goes to London in front of her home crowd and wins a bronze at home and she was in a flood of tears and I was trying to hold it together. This emotional rollercoaster is extraordinary. Rebecca has been, Rebecca came here too, in the second or third season. She's gone into television now. We work together. We work together all the time. So Mark Foster and Becky are often in the studio with CLA and then Andy James, Adrian Moore House and I have been together for years. So I'm poolside, which I still think is the best." work,
if I'm honest with you. At one Olympics, I remember, I have it here in my notes. You were, I think it was '96 in Atlanta. You were standing next to Bill Clinton at the opening ceremony, and, well, the great man, you were watching the great man. Yes, Muhammad Ali, Muhammad doing his thing. How was that? Brilliant. Muhammad Ali. It was a really great Olympics, actually. Yes, very much so. At the time, I was working with Des Lynam, actually, and I wasn't standing with Bill. Then Bill Clinton came in to do part of the opening ceremony, and I was standing with Des. We were here like this, talking to the camera at the opening ceremony of the, you know, Olympics, and Bill Clinton walked past me and winked at me,
another point too that I read somewhere that you were on an escalator. Maybe you were on an escalator and you dropped. Yes. Coffee, and I wasn't on the escalator. There was one of these little coffee stands next to the top of the escalator in the media building, right? And O.J. Simpson came up the escalator, and I turned around and spilled coffee on him as he was coming down. How did that turn out? Well, it turned out hot. Yeah. And that was after all the trials, you know, it was pretty close to all of that, too. Yeah. So I just said, "Excuse me, sir." And he just kind of backed away Going back to 2018, I just heard you
mention your mom, and you lost your mom in 2018. How did you feel about that process in terms of therapy? It was really hard to deal with my mom, and there are going to be a lot of people out there who will, you know, understand how I feel about it. My mom died from hepatitis C. My mom was given contaminated blood. She had gallbladder surgery in the '70s. In those days, they would literally hook you up to blood as a matter of course. So they gave her, you know, some of that blood that they bought from prisoners in the United States without being tested. Um, she didn't realize she had hepatitis C for about 20 years because it's a silent killer. And when she did realize it, she was, you know, pretty badly damaged. So she spent,
I think, another 15 or 20 years of her life on quite a few medications just to stay alive, which obviously affected her quality of life. But my mom was a strong woman. I mean, she worked in the civil service until she was 70. Um, but then when she got sick, she got really bad very quickly. I mean, it basically ruined her liver. So, you have to remember there are 30,000 people affected by hepatitis C, you know, who have had their lives cut short by something the National Health Service gave them. I mean, I think, you know, again, we're back to that injustice, aren't we? You know, you look at the Post Office scandal, you look at, you know, the sex gang scandal, you look at
hepatitis C, there are so many bad things that have happened. And who has been held accountable for them? No one. It's You said just before the break, before nine IVF cycles. Yes. To get to that point, yes. And now you're a grandmother. Fabulous grandchildren. We 're all grandparents. Mondays are my day. I stay with the youngest for the day. He's almost two. And then I go on the school trip, pick Ara up from school, and she stays over. And then I go on the school trip on Tuesday morning. So I love Mondays. So yes, it's absolutely my favorite day. And I adore it. I think it's because you have to live in the moment.
Yes. I do n't know if it happens to you, but you have to turn off your phone, you start drawing, you know, you sing songs, you start talking to them about things, explaining things to them. I think you relive the moment again. I mean, you know what? One of the things I'm most grateful for is growing up in the 70s, The '80s and '90s. I love the '70s, ' 80s, and '90s. If anyone, you know, I'd get rid of cell phones and the internet tomorrow if it were up to me. I 've said it, I've always said it. Absolutely. If I didn't have children, I wouldn't have a cell phone. I wouldn't. And I have no interest in that cell phone. But what were the kids like, you know, growing up with Mom being the. working, I was working all the time.
Yes. I mean, I had a nanny and personal assistant, my wonderful Sam, and she was with me for 18 years. And she made my life possible because I worked through raising all my children. You know, you talk about IVF, eight rounds of IVF and. two miscarriages, four years and a huge amount of money. Um, you know, I went back to work right away with all of them. But Sam was just incredible. She made my life possible, which was lovely. So, I think that's the difference with the grandchildren is that I don't have as much pressure to, you know, work 24/7. And also, I've cut down on my driving time. In the old days, I'd do 30,000 miles a year, driving all over the country for work. I probably don't even do 10,000 these
days, which, I must say, I don't miss at all. You recently launched a new women's sports union with, you know, the stated goal of challenging what's described as outright sex discrimination in sports. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yes. I felt like we needed a voice. You know, women's voices have just been ignored. So I thought if I could create a space where people could come and become members, whether they're athletes or parents of young kids with aspirations, then hopefully we can really give them a voice. Um, just doing what I've probably been doing the last few years, you know, lobbying. But now I have the opportunity to push harder because, obviously, I've been asked to run for the House of
Lords, which is quite a big deal. So it gives me a platform to fight for women's voices. I mean, the main goal is to support, protect, and grow; growth is very important to me. To increase female participation in sport. Um, you know, to raise their profile. To talk about the equipment. To talk about the prize money. To talk about, you know, media attention. I mean, again, you know, you open a newspaper any day of the week. Not that any of us open a newspaper these days, but you know, go online and pretend you open your newspaper.
There will be 20 stories about men's sport. You'd be lucky if there was one about women's sport. So it's about trying to raise that profile again. And then people will say, well, women's sport is getting better exposure. Yes. In football, cricket, and rugby. Yes. But if I asked you to name female athletes from five other sports, maybe you could because you're absolutely a fan of the sport, but the person The average person on the street couldn't. Yes. And I'm from a time when people could talk about female athletes, you know, they could name a lot of different people. Rachel Heyhoe Flint, there's a name from the past. But, well, it's pretty difficult for women out there now. Yes.
Even in things like track and field, a lot of people would struggle to name half a dozen female athletes. Swim for Life-I launched it with the lovely Princess Diana. Yes. Amazing. In those days, we didn't have, you know, we didn't even have the London Marathon like they have now. So this was a way of trying to raise money for different charities, and we raised about 10 million, but also to get people in the pool and fit . And I remember I had a swimwear company at the time, and I sent her some, and I have this letter at home in my office that says, "Thank you, Sharon, for the thoughtful touch." Could you send me a larger size? " With love, Diana."
What was that like? I mean, she was the People's Princess. She was an incredible human being. So, to have-I mean, to have anything connected with the Princess. She was a great swimmer, you know. She was physically active, too, was n't she? You know, and tall. Yes. You know, and William is a good swimmer. Yes. You know, he played water polo. So, you know, she passed on her love of the water to her sons, certainly, and particularly to William. Yes.
I mean, she was a very nice woman, you know. I really enjoyed being in her company. She was sporting. She was honest. I think she gave heart to the Royal Family, and I think William has that heart. I mean, over a period of 15 years, they raised about 10 million. Yes. 10 million with different charities, and each year we would just choose different organizations, whether it was some cancer research, we just tried to make sure it was spread across as many entities as possible. But for me, a big part was also getting people in the water. So there's a fitness element to that, obviously there's what you do now, after years and years of competing.
It's great how you can pass on your fitness knowledge and turn it into, well, just creating habits, creating good habits. Yes, fitness is habit-based, and it's that three-month period of having to work hard to create the habit, and once you have it, you miss it when you're not doing it. I think it's the endorphins. And I think when you guys quit sport, you really miss your endorphins. We're talking about the House of Lords. Kimmy Big, the leader of the Conservative Party, you know, I asked you recently, and now you're in the House of Lords. I mean, what are you hoping to achieve by going into the House of Lords? Because there are only a few
Olympians who have been there So what is Sharon Davis's sole purpose in going there and trying to make things happen? I suppose, in my area, it would probably be twofold. One is the Sport, fitness, and recreation, and understanding how important it is for young people to be physically active, both for their physical and mental health. The other, I suppose, would obviously be women's rights. Those are my two big areas, but I'm very passionate about health and fitness. I was asked to speak at the Conservative conference by the Shadow Health Minister, and what he did was say, "Okay, I'm going to bring in someone who's a real expert on AI." I'm going to bring in a doctor to talk about collaboration between hospitals and
GPs." I'm going to bring in a social services specialist." And then I want you, Shan, to talk about prevention instead of cure." And then we had the audience vote. Yes. And I won on the theme of prevention rather than cure. And I'm very passionate about that. About the quality of life of not getting sick. You know, diabetes, type 2 diabetes, costs us billions of pounds a year. And it's a serious problem. Here's a very interesting little statistic. Americans consume, on average, 200 more calories a day than the Japanese. And we're going in the direction of the United States, not Japan.
Yes. Every day. Yes. And mental health as well, as we talked about earlier. Especially for children, it's very, very incorporate the element of physical activity, isn't it? Back in the 1980s, I presented evidence to the Chamber of Commerce to include swimming in the national curriculum. And we succeeded in including swimming, so that every child should be able to swim 25 meters by the age of 11 when they leave primary school; it's a vital skill, but only half of all children do it now. You know, and it's always the disadvantaged areas that suffer; if you have children, you'll make sure that Swim if you can afford it; it's the children of parents who don't care or don't have the money who will lose out. So, again, I'm
passionate about this, and one of the reasons is that it's not monitored by Ofsted. Yes. Although it's part of the national curriculum, it's not being checked or enforced. That's another one of my recurring themes because drowning rates have increased, and we need to make sure our children know how to swim. Historically, I've been involved with the Conservative Party. I've done things in the past related to Mrs. Thatcher. I worked with John Major to achieve the lottery. Yes. I suppose I've had this connection for a long time. I was never a member. I wasn't a member for years; I was never a member until recently.
I actually voted for Tony Blair the first time he came to Parliament. So, you know, I voted different ways depending on the circumstances. I thought the Conservative Party had lost its way, and they needed-you know, we needed-to look after the community more. I think in a strong economy And I believe in rewarding people who work hard. And for me, that's probably the biggest reason. Would you say you're a patriot? Wow. What do you see? Absolutely. What do you think of these flags that are going up right now all over the country? Because there are a lot of them; almost every lamppost where I'm from, in Washington, has a flag on it.
Yes. Well, I competed representing the country from the age of 11, didn't I? So I've never lacked a Union Jack somewhere in my being. So I'm just concerned that some people don't understand the significance of that. Yes. I mean, in my hallway, I have a huge Vivienne Westwood British flag right in the middle of my house, and I just see it as being proud to be British; and I am extremely proud to be British, but being British can mean a lot of things, you know? It's not just one. Uh, MBE. Uh, that must be.my Uncle Juke got an MBE, so I know the sentiment in the family and the expectations about That's it, and it must have been a wonderful day for you. That's right
. You know what was nice about that? I didn't get it until '93, because when we went to Moscow, Mrs. Thatcher.we went against Mrs. Thatcher's wishes, although, you know, obviously, I quite liked Mrs. Thatcher. Uh, but she didn't award anyone anything when we came back. So we were punished for going. Therefore, although I was the only woman to win an individual medal, I did n't get anything after winning my silver medal. So I didn't get my MBE until I came back in 1993. So it was nice that I was able to take my parents to the palace and do all that. And, actually, when they asked me about the House of Lords, you have to keep it a secret, right? And I had to keep it a secret for a very,
very long time, because Westminster moves very slowly. But I was dying to tell my dad. So I spoke to them and said, " Look, my dad He is 90 years old. You know, I might not wake up next week. Please let me tell him because he'll be very proud." And then they let me tell him. Do you think we could maybe vote to have you given a gold medal? But it would be really nice after all these years. But I wouldn't be willing to accept this gold medal unless all of them had it's about all those girls who should have had those medals. Um, not just my medal. I think, to be honest, if I had decided to go to court, to take the IOC to court, I probably would have forced them to do it. But maybe it would have only been for me, because I had
Petra ready to give me the medal and I was tested, and you know, she was tested too and everything. So it would have been quite difficult for them. Is that something you're trying to work towards in the future? We're talking about Unfair Player , the book that's come out. It has the gold and silver medals on the cover. Is that what follows you? Motivating you and your ambitions and hopes to get there, you know, next week, next month, next year, and 10 years from now, which would be nice if they did it without me being posthumous, right? That's the kind of thing. What will happen? You know, they ask you to wait until I die before they give it to me. But what would you do if they gave it to you?
Because then you have, then you have a legacy. What fight am I going to take up now? You know what was really lovely? In 2012, the BBC did a big series, and obviously, considering I worked for the BBC at the Olympics, they did a very big series and spoke to all the living Olympic gold medalists in this special series they did before 2012, and they interviewed them in an unusual place, and they included me, and I got to go and do an interview in the Baths, you know, the Royal Baths in Bath, which is where I live. And that was, that was nice. But you'd be surprised at the amount of things I They've left me out because I'm actually an official silver medalist instead of a
gold medalist, you know, and that sometimes hurts. Does that hurt more than some of the things we talked about in one of the sections, where sponsorships and charities distanced themselves from you because of your views on things? Which one, which one hurts the most if I asked you? Because the Marine Conservation Society is the one I'd worked with for a very, very long time, and I'm passionate about the ocean. You know, I'm passionate about wildlife and the plastic in our oceans. I did "The Island" by Bear Grylls; it was kind of crazy. Never do that. Unless you want to lose a ton of weight. And, well, you know, seeing all the trash because we were in Panama and these places called the Pearl Islands, and the trash on the
beaches was just extraordinary. You had to wade through it to get to the sea, and it was quite heartbreaking, really. So I was very passionate about that. It's not surprising how passionate you are about the ocean and water, is it? And then, you know, I'd worked with them for years and they just laid me off overnight know, and you think, what does that have to do with my passion for a clean ocean, you know? So, what do ambitions and the future look like for you? Um, a lot of it is through my children. I just want my children to be happy and healthy. Um, I would love to see women's sport properly brought back to them. I would love to see boys getting back into sport and being healthier and
fitter. I would love, perhaps, for cell phones to be less accessible. I picked up my granddaughter from school the other day and was walking back to the parking lot and the high school next door, the bus went by, you know, and all the kids were on their phones. Every single one of those kids was on their phone, not talking to each other, not joking around, not messing around. And I just thought, "Oh, my daughters are the same." Sometimes I can see them, like every other weekend or whatever, and they'll be there on their phones, and it's just become that way. So I've set up times where I say no, no, put your phones away now, that's all. And I would really love to.
I'm a big fan of the truth and I would love to see a big red light go up above people's heads when they lie. Yes, that would be great for me. You are going to enter the House of Lords. It must be full of red lights. I love the truth. It gets me into trouble, but you know, I just love the truth. Yes. Well, Sharon, thank you so, so much for your time, your generosity, and your honesty. Your contribution to After the Lights Go Out has been greatly appreciated, and we wish you all the best in everything you do from now on.
Absolutely. Thank you.
