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If you're gonna wear the crown, you also have to be very, very, very prepared. Time to live one. Got to have the best type of presentation. You got to have that KILLER INSTINCT ROAD for a second time. Every now and then you got to take a risk. This is going to end up being your life's work if you make it work. Cody, I appreciate you joining the show, man. Thank you, my man. I'm happy to be here. Appreciate it. The first clip I want to go through is your debut. And from Charlotte, North Carolina, weighing in at 232 lbs, Cody Rhodess.
Cody Rhodess, the young son of Dusty Rhodess, in his first match on Monday Night Raw with his dad at ringside. Everyone looks different. Well, now there's also like a lot of legends in the room now. I mean, it's funny that this is a Wrestlemania main event. I don't know, almost 20 years later. But couple things that are a little funny here. Uh the John Deere green trunks. Uh and then I Cardinal sin in the wrestling business. What I'm wearing the trunks, but I'm also wearing white under trunks, which is should never do that. Dad's at ringside. Um, and I think what I got, the crowd actually bit on a missile dropkick as a
potential one, two, three, which is hilarious. The way they did this is the best way you could possibly introduced in wrestling though. Uh, they introduced me as a rookie, right? So, if you introduce me as a rookie, I can make my mistakes. I can learn. Uh, and then 20 years later, maybe you learn from your mistakes. I mean, sincerely, that's what we did with Wrestlemania this past year. So, this is uh pretty trippy to see, but I would I wouldn't have it any other way with how I debuted. Uh you debuted in a losing fashion. They didn't roll the red carpet out, but I got to learn in front of the live audience for the last 20 years, really. So, what are your nerves?
Well, I didn't have nerves are always there. I'm a fairly nervous person, but I deal well with nerves in terms of I can channel them into let me make the most of this, you know, the fight orflight type. uh vibe that runs through your body. But I think the thing I learned here was you can have the psychological skill, you can have the fundamental skill, but presentation, this is WWE, you've got to have the best type of presentation, and I hadn't figured out what my presentation was going to be. I didn't have Kingdom as an entrance song. I didn't have a cool robe. My gear barely fit. I'm wearing hand-me-down boots from my brother, I think.
Hair color is different. Yeah. I hadn't earned the right to do the roads bleached blonde yet. What did you not understand yet about what it takes to make in the WWE? You can have the greatest debut ever, but it's years until you really are moving any needles and it's WWE's job to book that properly and get you to the finish line. But also very much it's on you. It's relying on your perseverance. I think that's what I didn't learn to sum it down a little bit was the amount of perseverance it takes. This is not an easy job. This is going to end up being your life's work if you make it work.
Next clip. Battleground 2013. More cowbells. And their opponents to the ring by WWE Hall of Famer, the American dream, Dusty Rose at a combined weight of 455 lbs. The team of Cody Rhodess and Go. There's a lot of fun moments with your brother and your dad. What do you remember most, though? Uh, I love that it was in Buffalo, New York. I have a couple of uh unique hometowns that aren't hometowns. You know, Atlanta is where I'm from, but Buffalo is one. Philly is another.
Buffalo because of this match. There was even someone who said backstage, "Oh, do you think they'll care about the road story or Dusty?" Because he was more of a Florida, Georgia, Carolas's guy. And uh it was Michael Hayes who actually replied. He said, "They'll care about Dusty anywhere." Right. And this is it. The last Bionic Elbow um right there, the last one in a big setting on TV and just so much fun. Yeah. The crowd pop everything. Well, too, it's a real lesson. Me and Chicken, my older brother, had wrestled for 10 plus minutes and we were crowd was moving and they were rumbling, but they weren't up yet. And then dad takes
his hat off and hits that elbow and the people that's where they first came up and then we rode that all the way to the best crossroads I ever hit. And this is it right here. That was my question. I was like number one on the list. What makes it the best one? I'll never know how we got the floating. Uh I've tried again. It's there was something about how our feet were and Seth's skill level being one of the greatest of all time. Uh, I'll never know how we floated into that crossroads, but that's the number one on the list. How did it come about? Like, how and then why did you choose it as your finisher?
Um, I needed something I could hit a lot of people with. Um, roll the dice is what it used to be called. It had a couple other names and then other guys did Crossroads uh before me. I needed something I had hit on a lot of people and I think I was in a pinch because we had weather legacy at the time. they wanted us to do more stuff and we were running where we were running Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday. Um, you were kind of doing what you did on TV and there wasn't a lot of exploratory time. So, I got some time with Jamie Noble in the ring and Jamie Noble said, "Why don't we just do this tonight and see if that works?" And once it once we did it and it worked, I didn't want to turn my back on it.
Yeah. So, it became a thing. Why I started doing three is not for the reasons people think. I started doing three based on the energy of the crowd. There's something fun about hitting one and then them thinking, "Oh, he's gonna hit another," and then hitting another and then, "Oh, man, one more." It had less to do with uh needing three to beat anyone. Although, you do need three to beat some people. But, uh, yeah. No, Jamie Noble passed that on to me and I uh I stuck with it. Who haven't you got that you need to get with the Crossroads?
Sami Zayn. Uh Sami Zayn is one of my favorite people and one of the most talented wrestlers in the history of the wrestling business, but he was such a jerk to me when he came up from NXT and I was doing Stardust that I regularly tell his friends and him that I want to get my win back uh on Sami Zayn. Sami Zayn's won and uh before it's all over. Finishing the story is it means winning the WWE title. It also means beating our truth at one point, but he's he hides from me. I can't right now. I can't touch him cuz he's beloved, you know? I can't touch him. But I've thought about several times just trying to get it booked, just going out of my way cuz him looking up at the lights would mean a lot for me. He tortured me a
little bit as I was dashing Cody Rhodess and he knows he did. But because Ronnie's so beloved, I can't say nothing. So, a lot of smiling and shaking his hand, but he knows it's coming. One of my favorites because it looks so painful is the moon salt. I'm just curious when you're you're climbing, you're at the top of the cage, what's going through your mind right before you commit? Um, I have a this is not even meant to sound cool. I have a fear of heights. So, typically what I do is as soon as my feet are planted, I like to go. Uh, it's not a major fear of heights, but it's definitely there. So, once I'm up there,
I wanted to go. Uh, this was not There's a better moon salt that happens in the garden which was just on a live event and uh this wasn't the best one because I ended up tearing my uh MCL. Real slight little tear here. People get mad at Road Dog cuz he didn't catch me, but it's not his fault at all. Uh, and hilarious. I came to the back and I remember someone who I'm extremely close with to this day now, Triple H, was mad that I had done the Moonsalt with Road Dog. uh didn't think it was necessary. Maybe a risk I shouldn't have taken. Now we have a completely different relationship. But I remember that being just a bad night all around. We lost the titles. I did this moonsalt tore my knee
up. The other guy, the talent, there was talent who came up to Guerilla. I won't name who cuz I don't want them to get in trouble this day. They were ready to fight. It was a whole thing. This is something that we talked about and Billy Gunn, who's very much the wise person, Billy Gun had said, "We don't need it. We shouldn't do it." And uh he had to watch it up close because right after this I got up on that bad knee and they uh the finish happens. But I also love anytime you can take a risk or get the crowd going. You got to have that I don't know what we call it. I don't know killer instinct maybe. But you just got to every now and then you got to take a risk. You can't play it
too safe. And I didn't want to play it safe at this point in my career. Wrestlemania 38 the return. Is this the loudest pop you ever received in your career? Um, you know, I don't I'd say I'm not sure because it was very layered at the time. This now looks it was very obvious, but also it was so unlikely. However, it managed to be both obvious and unlikely because I had gone away. I me and my friends had started our own thing when the idea that I would come back fully as that um with every bit of what I had built outside in tow and that WWE would go all in on this version of me, the American Nightmare. Um, I' I'd say it's it's one of the loudest
I've ever heard a stadium where you often can't hear them because the sound all goes directly up. But AT&T Stadium was very receptive to that moment. And everything changed because even those who had thought, "Oh, this would be a great match for Seth Rollins might not have thought about what it will ultimately look like the day after." And the day after, I was on a path towards the WWE title from then. And I don't know if that was WWE'se's plan, but it became WWE'se's plan. Much love to Dallas for helping me get through it. This was named the second best Wrestlemania match ever, only behind Undertaker vers Shawn Michaels. Do you agree?
No, I don't agree at all. You don't even think it's up there, though? I think it's up there as a really great Wrestlemania moment. And I think it's a wonderful I think it's a wonderful match. I think from matches standpoint though see the thing is it might get any distinction simply because it is a very significant moment. You can talk about who's bigger returns, you know, if Punk's return, Cody's return. I always look at the return and say, well, what generated the most after, and I don't mean just in dollars and cents, what changed the culture of one place?
What, and I don't know the answer, which is better, but I do know that as far as a moment goes, there hasn't been a return like that in WWE. Again, so obvious yet, so unlikely. um really to come back was I think many people thought that had ship had sailed and now we're sitting here and we have the WWE title. So very uh great moment. When we watched your debut, you kind of mentioned some stuff of like, well, I didn't have the outfit. I didn't have the hair. I didn't have the entrance. How did you figure that out? Ah, trial and error. You know, I uh people assume with Dusty as your father that he's going to teach you everything, but my dad was super handsoff. So, I remember my dad told me
that wrestling tights were for job guys, uh, which is a way of saying the guys who get beat all the time. And I ended up having my most success in tights and not trunks. It's all trial and error. It was my experimentation outside of WWE with what I did uh, on the independent scene and Ring of Honor, uh, the Pulit Club, New Japan, and I finally, I think, gave into the idea that you need a community around you to build you. Who's te tell me what I need? You know, Sandra Gray who makes that military style American nightmare code. You know, I had mentioned taking risk. Do we take the risk and put your brand right on the side of your neck for the whole world to see and have it for the rest of your
life? I always tell people I'm a slow learner. Took me really till this moment to get there. Wrestling with a torn pec. I can't fathom. pain being experienced by Cody Rhodess before the match has even begun. Not only the physical toll, the mental anguish knowing that he is at a disadvantage with a high caliber top tier athlete like Seth Frein Rollins. Did anyone try to talk you out of this? Everybody try to talk me out of it. Everybody. I think this match is um uh I think companywise they don't I don't think they'd let me in the building anymore if they knew something like this was cooking solely because I'm a real big
uh toxic believer and if my legs work I'm walking to the ring. Yeah. So that's not how we should be. And WWE's medical staff is amazing. The only thing I had on my side here was that it was completely torn. and the tendon was completely detached from the bone. So, no more damage could have been done to it. And that was the big, you know, word that kept me in this thing. This also, most people probably figured this out. This wasn't supposed to be long. I think we went 20 something minutes, but this was supposed to be, you know, five, six minutes and uh a lot of threatening me, which is fair to say that they had would stop it if it got too far, but I just wanted to do it
different. Guys get hurt and they go get cut, they go get surgery, or guys get hurt and they go out on their back, whatever it may be. I just wanted to do it differently. I had just got started again and uh the fan the fandom particularly the young fans were starting to really get behind what we were doing and I didn't want to let them down. Plus Chicago Assate Arena means a great deal to me. Um God looks bad. So when you're having the conversation where someone's trying to stop you from you know being in this match and you're saying no, like how does it ultimately work out your way? I don't think I really had to say no as much as I just I committed to I wasn't going to have the conversation, right?
I had already been brought to Chicago. The idea that I would not be wrestling that I can't I mean my career would be completely different, but I just wasn't willing to have the conversation. And I'm not extremely bullish or rude or aggressive in any type of diplomatic situations, but I was prepared to be on that day because I this was happening. I was wrestling in the main event. Um we had just got a bunch of new subs for the platform that the show was on at the time. I was not going to not be in the third match between Seth Rollins and myself. Um even as I say it now, I still am defending it as if someone's telling me I can't wrestle. Like I was not. But that's just how I was and I don't think anyone could reach me on that day.
At what point are you feeling the 10 out of 10 pain? I'm assuming uh 10 out of 10 pain was really early. Um you know WWE doesn't have pain medication backstage. Uh if anything they've got good old anti-inflammatories and you know and I took I couldn't find the Advil so I think I took four baby aspirin. Uh and it's very quickly I felt the collar bone was really in a bad place. cuz what was being left of the muscle was reliant on it and it was pulling down and how much the swelling and the cramping but moments in there even as pulling the jacket off was difficult. It's the most pain I've ever been in my life and I it was consistent pain. I remember kind of laughing when I got to the bus after about how bad it was the whole time
because I thought, "Oh, it'll fa the adrenaline will wear off. It'll fade." It didn't fade. You were so close to finishing your story. Yeah. I'm just curious when you watch this back, what stands out? So is a great place to watch a match. The and the energy in that stadium was unbelievable. Um this is my favorite match I've ever been part of. It just felt it just felt uh honest to me in terms of when the behind the scenes things come into the onscreen things, it makes for a beautiful marriage sometimes. And we were watching a story that I really was trying to finish from before I was even
born against, you know, the greatest Wrestlemania main event of all time and that being in Roman Reigns. Um, I just everything about it felt like I was connected, if that makes any sense. I was connected with the people and I hated that I let them down, but uh I was connected with them. Everything that happens after this match is real. I sit in the ring, you know, you know, they just shot me for a while and that look on my face, which I know now can become performative, but here it was just a sincere moment. I there was a lot of fans excited that Roman won. Sure. Um but the feeling that we didn't finish this thing we came for sets us up for a whole another year and we almost didn't
even get to that. A whole another year of we're going to do this again. That's the biggest challenge I've ever had in my career. Capture this audience imagination and your own for another year at the same with the same goal. Did the loss change your mindset at all? M I think anything the laws this is going to sound weird and it doesn't it's going to sound controversial and it probably shouldn't be. I think I started trusting people a little less and listen I already trust people not great. I'm already I've been around the wrestling business my whole life but I think I started trusting others a little less and I started trusting myself a bit more. I knew what I had um come across
and I knew what uh I had built and it just emboldened me to let's get to the finish line here at Wrestlemania 40 and uh the greatest five minutes of wrestling ever. Oh yeah. CENA'S coming against him against the man WHO TOOK HIM OUT. So the color JOHN CENA IS HERE. CENA IS EVEN THE PLATE. OH. UH-OH. Out of um I was lucky enough to be here and I will never I've been to I've been really lucky working for ESPN. I've been to a lot of events. Super Bowls, stadiums get loud. I will never forget these five minutes. the pop, the
insanity, but from your perspective, like being in the ring, what does that feel like when you're seeing all these run-ins start to happen? Well, that's the funny part about The Greatest Five Minutes of Wrestling. The Me and Roman really aren't doing anything. It's our match, but it's everything else. I don't know if you ever have a perfect match, but this is as close as you get to a perfect match because of the sincerity of all of it. Um John, you know, John Cena had wrestled Solo Sakoa and he had spiked him in the throat months before. Um so for that for him to come and even the odds the final boss had been involved
with this in from the beginning he was going to wrestle Roman and then to turn it over to me for him to be the one to nullify John Cena. And then as we see after that, the sheriff of WWE, the absolute leveling of the playing field with the Undertaker showing up and uh choke slamming the final boss is it's the endgame finish. Uh but for wrestling and all of it again too, you couldn't have just done this with various characters. You had to do this with people that the audience had shared experiences with an equity um long form storytelling years and years of building like 25 years that we're talking sometimes wrestling stories I think I'm in one now that people may not even
realize I'm in one now people don't always realize it's it's going to take a while and we're not as patient as we used to be but they're beautiful when we take our time and this one we took our time I mean I this story started before I was born 78 So when you look back at this, I mean, what part of the sequence means the most to you? I think the part of the sequence of just the closing three crossroads. Yeah. I'm doing them as if it's another day at the office. And then I got to that third one and uh I almost lost my own footing. I remember I could feel my feet shaking. Uh, my heart was pounding harder than a heart should ever be
pounding. My arm started shaking and I wanted to actually start using that and have them see it and it guide me to the last one. But that's just the most um you have great moments, you have bad moments in your career. I can't describe this moment because it's so out of body. Yeah. It's so out of body everything and you seek after that. The big thing as a selfish wrestler, you're like, "Oh, I got to do that again. I got to feel that one more time because it's so hard to describe that feeling." I was. So, do you think you will never feel this amount of joy again? You know, I hope I can and I have in different ways, but if I didn't, I still It's a career. It's an a marvelous career that I ever got to it's
called the rare air in wrestling. And I've heard Cena talk about it and The Rock talk about it. I got to be in the rare air for that moment. I hope to get it again. I feel like maybe this next clip I did as well. Yeah. But uh that was a rare air moment. Did this moment live up to everything you had imagined? It did and more because of the amount of players who said I'll be part of that. The amount of players who said I'll guide us into modern WWE and all of modern WWE stems from Wrestlemania 40. So just to be a player in that to be a player and you Roman to have that story with him and have split he's got one I got one and where we go
from there and what WWE looks like under Triple H. I mean this is the beginning of the Triple H era. All of that Wrestlemania 40. Um it far exceeded any expectations or dreams I could have had. Um, I'm It's crazy to think I'm still WWE Champion even though we've had a couple speed bumps. Uh, that it's here now while watching this. Yeah. The SummerSlam match where you beat John Cena. Yeah. And after THE SHOW OF RESPECT, HERE WE GO. TONY SEAT UNDERWAY. GREAT MATCH. One thing that I was curious about, what separates a good match from a great one? What is that little bit of difference? Um, you know, you'll you'll kind of hear a
lot of arguments for what makes great wrestling and you hear about moves, you hear about moments, there's all these different kind of outlooks on it, but to me, a really good indicator on what's a great match is when the people are standing. Yeah. Um, it's hard to get. They're sitting down. They're having a good time. They're eating food. They're on their phone. They're they're laughing. They're they're enjoying things. They might be up on the entrances and but it's hard to get them in that closing stretch or the deep end as we say to come alive and come to their feet for something. And
that to me is always a really good way. I do this at my school cuz some of older matches people might make fun of or you'll hear, you know, people do the star ratings and stuff and I always say, well, the biggest indicator for me is that and I'll just circle the people. That's the biggest indicator. Uh there's there's ways to do this, you know, right? That there's not just one way to do it right. And how you'll know you did it right is if they're up, if they're standing. And I always like to take that as an honest bit of feedback. One thing that you kind of alluded to earlier was like this match kind of felt more it didn't feel like a typical match. It kind of felt like a special moment in your career.
Oh my gosh. Yeah. Obviously, it's John Cena, but what would you say are like the many reasons why this meant so much to you? Well, you know, wrestlers often think, oh, they know everything about the story, and then you got to remember they don't. They got their own. The world doesn't revolve around one person. But John had uh been a mentor to me for about two years. I drove John around. I'd sit by him when he'd get the call from Joe Hickey about the merch he sold that night. I'd listen to him talk about partners. I'd listen to him when he talked to the boss. We talk about
wrestling ourselves. He'd talk about my match. He was just a true real mentor. Um, and I love that he didn't just come back for one with me. That we got to do the mentor, the student teacher thing again. And the process of it was he is such an evolved storyteller now and such a unique artisan from when he was just a wrestler. I really value the promos, the talking about them, the it was like being part of a TV series. the week before he'd have, you know, pages of things and then we'd whittle it down and then we'd get there and we'd revisit it. Just the king of preparation and taught me that if you're going to wear the crown, you also have to be very, very, very prepared. And I again, he didn't
just come back and say, "Hey, I used to drive this guy around. I trust that he's the guy now." No, he put me through it. We didn't have to get to SummerSlam. We got to Summerslam because John Cena said it's right to do this at SummerSlam. And um that's as real as it gets. Again, the secret about pro wrestling that no one knows because they think the other thing is it's real. It's just not always the way you think. And uh this was a real moment. Did it feel like a passing of the torch moment when he's handing you the title?
It did, but it also felt like a passing of the belt moment cuz I mean he's literally handing me the title. Uh and that to us, you know, the torch is one thing. There's a lot of ways the torch gets passed in pro wrestling, but passing the belt is its own thing because that means, hey, that guy is literally going to be doing everything for our company throughout the duration that he has it. Every media stop, every live event that we still do to this day, he's going to be doing everything. And I feel like there's a lot of power in just passing that belt. Um certainly felt like something.
What did he say to you? I won't tell you what he said to me. uh cuz I always wanted to keep that he obviously John likes to respect the business and uh I won't say but I will tell you what I said to him was I told him I'm sorry it took me so long. Cena obviously it's very clear that he means a lot to you. Yeah. Is there other wrestlers that you have wrestled against where it just meant more? Uh oh yeah. First time I got in there at SummerSlam was Shawn Michaels. Yeah. You know, Shawn was my favorite uh growing up, him and Sting. So, Sean, being around Shawn in any capacity, learning from the Undertaker, not just
in a one moment on a full live event tour. Ray Mysterio um is someone who means a great deal to me that I don't we don't have enough moments with each other um for me to tell him how much he means to me. Um yeah, no, Randy Orton, of course, Seth Rollins in a unique way now to this day. Punk is another one. Um because I showed up at OBW brand new when he was getting ready to leave. Yeah. A lot of the which is great because all that equity between us when it comes on screen, we're not faking anything, you know. It's sincere.
Your dad's final match. What do you remember most? I found it in the vault. I don't think I'd ever seen it. Um well, uh it was funny. Um Michelle Mcool's father is there. um cuz he was just a big Dusty fan and they had a really great relationship and I love that he came. It was like a luminary presence uh to see this moment with dad and uh this six-man tag. Maybe the only time we ever Yeah, I this is probably the only six-man we ever did. What I remember that was funny was my dad was there to tell a story and have a good time. Uh in sync Bionic Elbows. Um, but Dustin was there to get like a full workout in and have an absolute 30 minute spectacle type match filled with high spots and
action. So, he's hitting the ropes so hard that you can hear them ping. And I remember my dad looked at me on the corner and just said, "Is he always like this?" And I said, "Yeah, Dustin goes. He does not paint up for anything less than a full-blown uh go get him type match. But it was really fun to see uh him watch Dustin and then of course him and Dustin watch me. You know, we're we're we're apart in age, Dustin and I 16 years. So these moments we had together with Stardust and Gold Dust and then of course Gold Dust with me uh with Cody Rhodess that's the most we've been able to be brothers. So, I really value these times. I didn't know what I had and now I do.
Cody, thank you so much for the time. Do this again. Yeah, we got to. This was like a blast through, man. This is quite refreshing. I don't think I've ever done this. I loved it. Thank you, man. Appreciate it, dude. Thank you. Those cell phone videos are wild.
