Millennials Are the Last Generation to Remember Life Before the Algorithm

- Eat cereal for two meals a day, like of course millennials have body dysmorphia. (chill music) - Hello and welcome to "Outside the Fox," where we explore what's happening online and why it matters. I'm Kim Horcher. - And I'm Steve Flavin. And Kim, do you remember a time before the internet? - Kind of, logically, yes. I remember when I wanted to play an MMO, and my sister picked up the phone, and she ruined everything, and the raid was messed up, and I didn't get to play, and I didn't get the reward, and everyone was mad. That's imprinted forever.

- Alas. Well, I remember specifically the sound, the sweet, sweet dial-up sound, the patience, the commitment to logging on, you really had to be intentional about it. Also logging off, (Kim chuckles) there was a clear beginning and end to being online. - Right, you couldn't just like look at your phone a thousand times a day, it would just be, now is internet time, now is not internet time, well, that was nice time, to live my life. - Yep. And as millennials, we're sort of the last group that remembers what life felt like before the internet, and also help build what it is now.

We've seen how the internet's changed in real time, not just technically, but culturally. - And it changed us, like a lot. - Exactly. And here to talk to us more about that today is Dr. Jazz Walker, a media PhD and researcher who studies how culture, society, and technology shape our experiences online. Also, not to brag, she's my colleague at Mozilla. Dr. Jazz, welcome to the show, can you tell us about yourself and your work?

- Yes, thank you, thank you. I'm a true millennial with my denim on today. - Hey. (chuckles) - Right, right, always a good time for denim. - Yes. - I have spent so much of my life on the internet, and I was the kid who found my people on Tumblr, found my people on YouTube. And so, I spent so much time building community online, it really led to my dissertation research, which was understanding how creators build community online through language and discourse, and how that impacts our identity instruction, how it impacts pop culture, how it impacts advertising and marketing. And so, it's just become this kind of passion point

birthed out of my own experiences and reflection of like, what would it feel like if I had not had access to these people and these communities, to see that my differences and my ways of thinking were not just so isolated, or, you know, out of the box, so to speak, right? And just really, what that means as a generation, what it means for our future generations. And I work in marketing partnerships at Mozilla, and yeah, I'm really excited to be here and to chat. - Awesome, I think we might have a lot in common, (Jazz chuckles) but I wanna talk to you about something you've been exploring, which is the idea that millennials are kind of a bridge culture, where we've both experienced analog life and now digital life.

Can you talk about that a bit? - Yes, I think it is one of the biggest phenomenons of our time that we are like very under-focusing on. Millennials have so much institutional knowledge, like we joke that we are converting PDFs for our coworkers who are making so much more than us, who are so much levels higher than us. And then we have, you know, the teachers talking about students in the classroom not even knowing how to type on a keyboard because they're so used to doing things from their phones or from their iPads. And there was just so much inherent natural learning that was required of millennials, right?

Like we still had computer classes, and Mavis Beacon typing, and we learned how to type with QWERTY keyboards, and all of these things, right? So there was a lot of friction that just naturally existed for us to get on the internet and to build it to what it is. There's almost this onus to the millennial generation to kind of really not lose that, kind of like institutional knowledge. Like, the idea that when millennials are gone off this planet, there will be no one left who knows life without the internet, and without so much of these technologies, is just really, really crazy to me. (chuckles) - Wow. - Yeah.

- We really are the greatest generation. (Steve chuckles) - Truly. - Truly, what can't we do? (Kim chuckles) - You know, we might be biased, we might be a little biased. - No. (Kim and Jazz chuckle) So, you touched on this a little bit, you alluded a little bit, but what do you think we carry from that analog experience that might be getting lost now? Specific habits or skills, whether it's attention, patience, or even how we learn, that feel different for millennials compared to other generations?

- Absolutely, you touched on a few of them. I think the first one is problem solving. So much of what we experienced, we were the first to see, to play with, right? Like now, we have entire UX design teams whose jobs are essentially to make it user friendly, reduce the amount of friction to getting started. We didn't have that luxury, so we had to figure out what symbols and icons meant, we had to figure out, you know, what context on this page makes this button make sense. And so, that problem solving was really important.

I think also, like you mentioned, patience. When I think about trying to learn the words to a song as a millennial, right? Like now, you can just open your iPhone and do karaoke straight from your TV, you can go on, you know, Genius lyrics, we had to quite literally pause and play cassette tapes and CDs and try to write it down in our notebook and things like that. Yes, they encourage patience, but also, it's activating so many pieces of your brain. So, that inherently built these type of critical thinking skills, it built neural pathways, essentially, for learning, and it's why we probably remember songs.

Like, there's always these jokes of like, "I haven't heard this song in 20 years, why can I?," because you were probably more present when you were listening to it, when you were trying to learn the words to it, you have very core real world experiences with the song, right? A lot of songs now people are introduced to on TikTok, and a sound, you hear the snippet, and it moves, it's a little dance, and that's probably all you remember, versus, we sat and listened to entire albums, right? Remember when records were a thing? Like, it was family time to play a record, you weren't watching TV and eating dinner at the same time, like you were really immersed in it. And so I think that ability to be present, that ability to problem solve,

to be so immersed in something that is activating multiple parts of your brain, which really helps all types of development, you know, mental stimulation, all of those things and all those factors, I think those are just such unique aspects that we are losing by creating such ease, and, you know, reduced friction experiences online. - Yeah. Our last episode, in fact, we talked about how tech shapes the music industry and how listening habits have changed, so. You know, on that note, (Jazz chuckles) when you think of the platforms that we engaged with, like early YouTube, blogs, forums, it felt like people were sharing things for the joy of it, not necessarily building careers.

- Yeah. (chuckles) - At what point did that shift? - Yeah, I don't even think it was at that time. (chuckles) - Yeah, yeah. At what point do you, have you observed that shifted when the internet became less about connection and more about monetization? - When brands realized the weight of influencers' opinions before they were getting paid. Somewhere between, I'd say 2012 to 2014, there was this shift of like, how much you could even make from brand deals, what a brand deal looked like. Like I remember when I had a Tumblr, I was in college, and I had partnerships with like, WWDMAGIC wanted to send me, you know, things, Forever 21 sent me a, you know, a bed set to send out to followers, but there was no payments and there was no guarantees.

And so that created this inherent level of trust between the creators, or, you know, the bloggers and their audience, it was just for fun and joy. But then, I mean, as capitalism does, it kind of engulfs a system, and really, really shifts it and turns things over into another direction. So, somewhere around there when the money started changing and marketing companies are taking their budgets out of print and traditional media, and they're putting it behind creators and social ads, I think that was really when that shift changed. Because then it's also not fun, right? Like, now I'm making this post because I'm getting paid for it and out of obligation, I might not feel like it, I might not feel my best.

So there's a lot of factors that come into play that kind of have, you know, impacted that shift. - It's always great when money affects creativity, that's what I always say. - Isn't it so fun? - Yeah, just love it. (Jazz chuckles) Love those restraints. (chuckles) It does seem like there's almost two ways to interact with social media, as a person, or maybe a brand. So, how has that changed how we relate to creators? - Oh, I think that's so interesting, because it's such a double-edged sword, because essentially, creators are engaging in both ways, right?

Like they are a brand and a business, but they're also just a regular person on the internet, and they too still wanna build community, and to connect and have these experiences. But then, you know, because they are now public figures, it's not always as easy and clear. And so we develop things like parasocial relationships, which are not new, but now, we have creators who can reply and who can respond, and that you can follow for years, and decades even, you watch them grow from, you know, high school in their dorm to 30-something, and married with kids, and it creates, you know, this sense of relationship and, you know, that can have goods and bads, right?

Maybe you are really, really invested in a creator because you're just so proud to see their journey over time, and you really relate to them and you trust them, but also it can, you know, garner mental health problems, and, you know, create false realities, and different challenges of being online that really get murky, and that we just have never had to navigate or experience before. And now, for Gen Z and Gen Alpha, that is really different, and so there's just so many layers that are shifting how we engage, how we connect, and just what is even at play. - Yeah. Well, speaking of Gen Z and other generations, do you think that millennials experienced a slower, more relational version, compared to Gen Z,

who sort of dropped into the internet fully formed, and the creator economy specifically? And what was the impact of that? - Perception of time. I actually have a TikTok about this that's one of my favorites. I think just the literal reality of millennials having to go through time with creators showed us what it really takes, right? So if I followed a creator for 10 years, at the same time, I'm following my own dreams, I'm doing my own goals, I'm in school, I'm in college, so I know what it feels like for something to take 10 years, and I watch something grow brick by brick, right?

And now, Gen Z and Gen Alpha is being dropped into an internet that has already been built, that has already had, like new world levels of success for creators that we didn't even imagine 10 years ago. Like creators at the Met, like what? Like that was not something that we were even thinking would happen, but now, that's what they're seeing as a baseline. So it's really distorting perceptions of time, perceptions of success. There's so many young creators, and just young individuals who feel like they're behind because they haven't, you know, been able to get a C-suite office and fly on a private jet at 25. That's not quite realistic,

but if that's what you see constantly on social media, since, you know, the day that you open the internet, it really, really shifts things, and how people, you know, see the world and see the internet. - Yeah. I mean, we've talked a little bit about this at Mozilla, but a lot of the mechanisms that keep us scrolling aren't actually new, they're marketing techniques that have existed in media for decades, kind of remixed for the internet era, and over time. Can you talk about how older media strategies show up in today's internet ecosystem, and what differences there are now in how we interact with them?

- Yeah, definitely. A lot of old marketing, a lot of marketing in general is emotion-driven, right? They don't want you to be making rational decisions, they don't want you to have time to think critically about the ad, they want to quickly get your attention, right? So in a magazine, that might look like certain fonts or imagery. In social media, that is, you have to open with a hook, you have to get to the point, right? Another, you know, example of that is playing on, you know, women's insecurities, and men as well, but I think specifically around the beauty space, because that's such a big part of the creator market, is so much comparison culture, right?

When I think about the ads in the '90s, or even before that, like, I think it was the '50s where it was like "nothing tastes as good as skinny feels," and then we've had the Special K diets. And like that, in retrospect, like eat cereal for two meals a day, like of course millennials have body dysmorphia and self-conscious issues, right? And now that looks like flat tummy tees and GLP-1 ads. And so, it's really just evolving with everything else around us, like the functions, the techniques, they are all the same. And they can be used for good or bad, right? So, you can use a hook to actually teach people something. But, because money and capitalism also exist at the same time, we just see so much less of it,

and it is not the dominant media that is being pushed. - As a woman, I'm sad now. (Jazz chuckles) But. (Kim chuckles) - So sorry, so sorry to do that to you. (chuckles) - Yeah, you didn't do it. Well, I mean, you've talked in your previous work about people who sort of passively consume media online, like sort of like passengers, without ever really questioning or having critical thought about maybe what they're consuming. What are some patterns you've noticed in that, and do you have any tips of getting around that? - I think the first thing that people really should do in order to understand the patterns, is to just be curious about yourself.

It's hard to do consistently for a week, but even in a day, or in a moment, think about what you're doing and what's happening when you pick up your phone. Are you bored? Are you hungry? Are you waiting for something? Like, what are the moments that make you pick up your phone? What apps do you go to? Is it, you know, you're going to Instagram because you like visual simulation? Are you gonna a book, I mean, to Threads because it's easier to read? So just being aware of what's happening in those patterns,

because that really is the pattern, usually there is some type of friction or discomfort that people are feeling, and then they reach for their phone as almost like a pacifier, right? To give either quick hit of dopamine, kill some time, boredom, whatever it may be. Once you understand those patterns, it's a bit easier to create new, kind of systems and structures for that, right? So for me, I know I tend to like pick up Threads because my daughter's often around, or I'm like in a public space waiting, you know, for a class to finish. And so it's a lot easier sometimes to just be on Threads. And so instead now, I put my Kindle in my purse, and I can use that when I'm, you know, in a point of waiting.

And I can also, you know, put a physical book sometimes, now that she's older and not ruining things, I carry physical books. Again, that's not, you know, something that I woke up and realized one day, but because I've been curious, I've really spent like the last year being very, very curious about my technology habits, and trying to understand, you know, what the triggers are so I can build different ways around them, because it's not easy. I've even deleted Instagram and threads off my phone, and I only view them in a browser, because again, it's a terrible UX, they don't prioritize that experience,

so I just genuinely don't stay in the app as longer. Like videos kind of like, don't always pop out and play, so like I can get a little bit of a hit, see what's going on, see what folks are talking about, and I'm like, all right, I'm done with this. So there's lots of things to just be curious about, to recognize, to try to understand those patterns, and really just try to shift around them and build new systems and new habits to really get away from them. - Yeah. You've mentioned this idea that really resonates with me about asking why multiple times. Can you walk us through what that looks like in practice as we engage with the internet and technology?

- Yeah, definitely. I'll be very vulnerable and share, because this is one of the reasons that really sparked it for me, and I think it's a great example of a time to ask why. I've had moments in life where I, of course, you know, want more, or my goals are bigger, or I'm just trying to accomplish more things, and I get on and I scroll, and I see other people doing those things, and I feel discomfort. And I will stop, and I will say, why do I feel this discomfort? Am I really jealous of them, or do I feel like they're doing something that I wish I could be doing?

What can I do to get me closer to doing that? Maybe I can, you know, dedicate some time this week to writing or to filming, getting my, you know, podcast set up, whatever it may be, and then say, okay, if that's what I really need to be doing, how does that then make me feel? Does that make me feel better? Does it make me feel more in control of my emotions? And then you realize like, I'm actually not jealous of this person, I'm jealous of what they're able to do, and I wish I could do it too, so I'm gonna step offline and back into my own reality, into my own feelings, I'm gonna figure this out for myself. If you're able to really work through those emotions and really get through it, and if it leads to also gonna therapy, talking to someone,

talking to a friend, journaling, like, that's when you're really getting to the root cause of the issue. And then when you step back, you know, a year later, you're like, wow, I'm glad that I really did start interrupting those thought patterns, because now I don't have those same feelings when I engage on online. - Definitely. Well, on that note, this is something we've discussed on this show before, and it's something I think about, and it is about having boundaries for people who are creators, and focusing on mental health, and how can you balance the two, you know, having boundaries, but without completely disconnecting?

- Yeah, absolutely. I think for creators specifically, I highly recommend having two separate phones, like having a work phone that has the apps and the tools and the notifications, just very separate so that it's much easier to disconnect. You can just go outside and leave the work phone. Maybe it's that you only respond to so many comments, maybe it's that you have some keywords that just immediately filter them out so that you don't even have to see them. When you go into comments, you could have someone else maybe screening comments on your team if you're getting so many, it's like, hey, these are really good ones that I think you should respond to, that way you don't have to be the one

constantly taking things in and reading and looking at the other hurtful things to try to find, you know, the good comments and the good value. You are a person who works, you still need vacation time, and it's very easy, when your life is your work, to blur that line. So taking trips that you don't vlog, right? Taking moments with your family that you're not turning into content, having boundaries about what is and isn't content in your personal life can really help establish that.

- You've spoken on social media about the specific experience of Black creators, especially in terms of visibility, compensation, and mental health. What have you seen in terms of how platform dynamics and broader systems are shaping those experiences as the internet evolves? - Wow, how long do we have? (laughs) (Kim and Steve chuckle) There's so much there, I think kind of the bigger, the biggest issues I think is, number one, creator pay. And there's such lack of transparency in creator pay

that it's very easy for people to be underpaid. And it doesn't start with creators, right? That goes to the workplace, and not discussing work compensation openly, not posting these things publicly. It's not, you know, a new phenomenon, but Black creators don't always have access to the same networks or management companies to know what they should be charging, to know what the going rate for a piece of content is, so they often undercharge themselves, right? Also, a lot of these algorithms and platforms are pushing content that is very heteronormative, that is very universally palatable, and that does not most times include people with black and brown skin, right?

And so we've seen that so many times with TikTok dances that were created by Black creators, and then, you know, a white creator gets the invite to Ellen, even though they weren't even the originator of the dance. And so, there's such a lack of infrastructure in the creator space in general that makes it difficult, and then when you add the social dynamic and political dynamics and power dynamics of not having access to these spaces that give you, you know, context and resources and management, it makes it really hard to also then make that a viable career. - Yeah. Well, that's such an important topic, thank you for sharing that. On a somewhat related note, we live in this era where we're just inundated with information, but it feels like sometimes

we don't always understand things better. - Yeah. - How do people actually make meaning from all this information, instead of just absorbing it? - I think that's a hard one, because oftentimes people don't realize that they don't always have the meaning-making context and skills to actually make meaning from it, right? They don't have a filter through which they're taking this information in. And I think creating a filter for yourself of how much information you're gonna take in, who you follow, vetting, you know, who you're following, right?

A lot of these people are not experts in their industry, they're just people who have a platform. And so being mindful of like, I'm gonna listen to professionals, I'm gonna listen to doctors, there are tons of pediatricians sharing information online, there are tons of PhDs and researchers sharing, you know, information online. So I think a lot of times it's just following less, keeping up less, you do not have to take in everything. Because also, it's very repetitive. Like, you're gonna hit the law of diminishing returns, and hear people kind of regurgitating the same information at some point, right? And so, we don't have to take in all of the information that is available to us just because it's available to us.

- That's something we've talked about a lot, it's really easy, especially as content creators for us to convince ourselves that we have to be tapped in all the time, so, it's about- - Yeah, it's a problem. - It's about like- - Yeah. (chuckles) - You know, setting that boundary. I'm curious of, you know, we're talking about kind of offline things that we can bring back, but are there elements of the earlier internet that you feel are worth intentionally bringing forward? - Yeah. I would love to see people creating without monetization, and I would love to see people just exploring writing for the sake of writing, and just not caring about the audience, right?

Like, if 10 people stopped you on the street to tell you something was good, like that's still a lot. And I think we get so wrapped up in like these numbers and how, you know, online exists, and, you know, functions, that we forget that like, you can just create for a small group of people, and that can still be very rewarding and very beneficial to the world around us, I think it's really important. And there's a lot of ways to do that too on the internet, right? So, Kagi Small Web has this new project where it's kind of just human-curated content on the line, that's all you can see, like there's no AI, there is no, you know, SEO ads and things like that, you can literally just go into it

and experience real people writing and creating online, and I think that's a great example of that. And I would love to see Tumblr, like, esque, Tumblr-esque style things coming up (chuckles) because Tumblr still exists, but we're not gonna go down that road. But I do miss like, the early days and styles of Tumblr, and I feel like it's kind of coming back with like the dumps that are happening on Instagram, where it's like, there's no curation, there's no like theme, it's just, here's what's happened in my life for the last week. And those are my favorite posts, because it gives you an insight into people's worlds, and it's just like, just creating without thinking, I think is really what it comes to too, right?

Like, just post the pictures, who cares? You wanna post food pictures again? Do it. You want to just like share photos of your family for your friends? Just do it. Like, we have the power to just do these things and to just bring them back, like you don't have to wait for other people to do it, make it their thing with your friends or your group chat, and just start keeping them alive. Because what you also will then see, other people want it, they just may not have, you know, the confidence, or you know, the platform to feel like they have permission. And so maybe you giving yourself permission

to just do the things, to just not think about it, and just be creative and engage, will give someone else the permission, and that's how good trends can start. - Well, this has been a fascinating conversation, shedding light on topics that we talk about a lot on "Outside the Fox," and just in general, so Dr. Jazz, thank you for joining us. Where could people find you online to learn more? - Yes, you can find me everywhere, I can exist @drjazzwalker, (chuckles) Instagram, Threads, all the things. I'm also excited to be bringing back my Substack and my podcast, State of the Influence, this year,

where I talk about how to engage critically with technology and the media around you, how to have a more intentional relationship and build better habits, and just be more mindful of how you are being influenced by culture and technology at large. And so, I was really excited to get to talk to you all about these things, this is definitely my jam, as you can tell, so thank you so much for having me. - Well, as an always-online millennial who has a lot of feelings about that and does remember the simpler times, it's very interesting to see how we engage with that in mind.

- Yeah, some great tips on how to be more intentional, and also tips that any generation, not just millennials, can take away and apply to their lives. - Absolutely. (chill music) But we wanna know from you, are you a part of the bridge generation, AKA millennials, and do you sometimes wanna walk backwards on that bridge to the simpler times? Let us know in the comments. - And don't forget to subscribe, and make sure to download Firefox, because you know it's the best.

We'll see you next time. (chill music subsides)