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[BILL BARNETT] Greetings from Stanford University. I'm Bill Barnett, professor at the Stanford Doerr School of Sustainability and the Stanford Graduate School of Business. [MILIAN CHEN] Hi, everyone. My name is Milian Chen. I'm a sophomore studying Earth Systems in the Biosphere track here at Stanford, and really excited to be here. [RUDI GHARIB] And hi, I'm Rudi Gharib. I am a PhD student at the School of Sustainability and also an incoming master's student at the School of Business.
I'm also a fellow at the Center for Just Environmental Futures. [MAXINE BURKETT] Hi, everyone. Maxine Burkett, Emerson Collective Professor of Climate, Environment, and Society, and the faculty director of the Center for Just Environmental Futures. [BILL BARNETT] And Rudi and Maxine, it is so great to have you on the podcast. Milian and I are thrilled. You guys just ran- A conference on preferred futures, climate and environmental justice across borders. What an incredibly contemporary topic. Miljan, what are your reactions to the conference? What questions would you like to ask our guests?
[MILIAN CHEN] Yeah, so I think my first question I'd like to ask is, I had the honor of attending the opening ceremony for the opening of the Stanford Center for Just Environmental Futures, and seeing all the speakers come in, being very excited about all the things that are gonna be happening. So I was wondering how has it grown since the opening in January? How was the conference? How, collaborating with everyone and learning from everyone since the inaugural year has started? [MAXINE BURKETT] Yeah, it was a pretty quick start.
We as a center were approved- Just in October, in the fall quarter. And so we had a quick deadline to introduce ourselves to the campus and the broader community through the conference at the end of March. And so a lot of what you saw in the interim was really getting our program together and introducing again what we hope to do at the center, the scope of the work, the kinds of collaborators that we envision really playing out over the course of that day and a half. So that's what we were busy with. I would add as well that we were able to get off and running so quickly because we had the benefit of the incredible work of the Environmental Justice Working Group That preceded some of the center work to build off of.
[RUDI GHARIB] Yeah, just like Maxine said, you know, it has been a really exciting race to get us started. This was our public debut for the Center for Just and Environmental Futures. It was a chance for us to say, you know, "Here's who we are as a center. Here are the incredible scholars and practitioners that we are already in community with. And here are the set of questions that we think- Environmental justice and climate justice scholars need to be asking, thinking through, and collaborating on. And I don't think you could have asked for a better first impression.
[BILL BARNETT] I'm just, I'm so impressed with your responses there and actually what you've put together. And I think this conference is a great example. You had a whole series of lightning presentations. What a great format. Lots of new research questions popcorning up from a bunch of really bright scholars. What are some of the highlights? And maybe we'll start with you, Maxine. Some of the highlights you saw coming out of these, and then Rudy, we'll want your reactions to that as well.
[MAXINE BURKETT] Yeah, thanks Bill. There were quite a few. I want to just acknowledge that Rodolfo Dirzo, who has chaired the conference in the past, set a really, I think, excellent precedent, acknowledging that there was a robust community, both at Stanford and more broadly, doing this work, and we have an incredible pipeline for climate and environmental justice scholarship, as demonstrated by the lightning talk. So we had a very crowded set of field, and we had a number of graduate students in particular who were presenting their work. I do wanna highlight one student who was a bit unusual, but I think the hope for the future, a high school student from Texas, who
Who applied to present a lightning talk on his work on air monitoring in the region and urban pollution, and he was incredible. Again, a junior in high school from Texas who came all the way to Stanford campus to share his work. During the question and answer period for him, he also revealed that he had a nonprofit to continue to do this work. So he, just as a young person, again, in the pipeline doing incredible scholarship and then marrying that with engagement with the nonprofit was just a perfect example of the kind of work and the kind of collaboration that we seek to do at the center.
[RUDI GHARIB] Yeah. He really was incredible and very inspiring and Definitely made us all feel like we were, we were behind the curve. And thanks for bringing up the lightning presentations, Bill. I think it's something that often gets overlooked in these conference recaps, and they were genuinely, I think, one of the most intellectually exciting parts of the two days To Maxine's point, it was a crowded stage. We had 20 presentations that were selected, and we selected only graduate students, or students generally, but there were an enormous amount of applications that we sadly had to turn away. And so I'm excited to keep that conversation
going with some of the papers we received that we didn't even get to incorporate. But of the presentations that we did see, During those two days, I mean, we just had an incredible range of diversity. We had PhD students working on peatland conservation in Colombia, food system modeling in India, gendered climate vulnerability in Madagascar, indigenous-led conservation governance. I mean, truly a diverse collection of research agendas all within the environmental justice space, just genuinely highlighting that there is so much work to be done, and there are really eager and brilliant scholars doing the work here at Stanford.
[BILL BARNETT] Yeah, that's super good to hear. I mean, you know, I'm gonna put you on the spot, Rudy. I know you're right in the middle of your dissertation research, which makes you- [RUDI GHARIB] I am. [BILL BARNETT] Yeah, and this makes you one of the world's great experts on such an important topic. I know you're working on displacement, climate displacement, and your work includes the experiences of people in the Global South broadly and And I'm intrigued by that. I also know that just by your nature, you pay attention to many of those subtle narratives and the kind of legal categories that often make a big difference that we don't see.
Would you mind sharing some of that work with us? [RUDI GHARIB] Yeah, absolutely. And how humbling. Thank you for introducing some of that. And, you know, I am advised by Professor Maxine Burkett, so it's been a real treat to work with her, both in the dissertation space, but also in this- Applied space where we can look at this very real and very urgent problem that spans not only the Global South, a lot of my research is in East Africa and Kenya, and looking at climate migrants who are coming in from Somalia because of the drought in the Horn of Africa, but also here at home in our very own backyard.
I'm from Los Angeles and grew up just 20 minutes away from Altadena where the wildfires Communities and neighborhoods that I've known my whole life. And so climate migration, climate displacement is a very real issue that is really starting to get a little bit more attention. And we're grateful that we were able to not only You know, talk about it through the dissertation process, but have an entire panel at the conference, that looked at what these frontline communities are experiencing and also, how we as researchers and practitioners can really be alongside them at the front lines, co-designing some of the solutions, both policy and financial solutions that are really
going to be necessary in the coming years. [BILL BARNETT] Okay. Thank you for that. [MILIAN CHEN] So I had a question earlier, looking at the wonderful agenda about the Event, rights of nature, rights of place. Just thinking about your introduction of the conference as across borders and how in the description it was talking about trans borders, like, in between, and just 'cause borders are really, lines drawn on maps that were arbitrarily made, and a lot of indigenous peoples around the world are living in places that are not fully defined in that way. I think there was also another session lightning talk about, consent and how to talk with people and make sure
people know what's going on the land that they're on. I guess my question is When talking about non-conventional, quote-unquote, ways of talking about land and governance, is there any ways that it was approached during this conference that you thought would be worth expanding and talking about? [MAXINE BURKETT] Yeah. Thank you so much, Milena. I think this is a really core question. I mean, what we're trying to do here is really work in deep time and deep space, if you will, right? We're looking at the centuries that have brought us to this moment We're looking ahead, I think, at least a century.
We certainly have more of a seventh generation orientation about the work that we're doing. Being good ancestors is certainly, I think, a core part of the ethos of the center and its leadership currently. And we're looking across the globe. Local to global is a really key element of this, and part of that is because there are issues and there are communities, there are people who have a transboundary existence. And that's really important for us to respect and understand. I wanna emphasize, though, that because of the scope of the work that we were doing, one panel couldn't encapsulate All of the rich information and knowledge that is embedded in that Rights of Nature, Rights of Place title.
We really were just looking at ways to introduce some of the core concepts and get us thinking very differently about questions of how we respond to the current environmental crises. And what I found, and certainly what we know from the panelists, is that each one is doing really novel and innovative work in their spaces. So Waleed Johns was a senior official at the Department of Energy in the Biden administration. Kyle Artell is a biologist working with Robin Wall Kimmerer and some really groundbreaking Two-eyed seeing work in the indigenous community.
Patty Ferguson-Bohnee is an attorney and she works on everything from democracy and sovereignty for Indian country to issues of displacement. And so we wanted to really just introduce the breadth of the inquiry and the innovation that's happening in these spaces. [BILL BARNETT] Wow. You know, as I listen to you, Maxine, I think of the fact that here at Stanford we have a tremendous reputation and a lot of scholarship That looks at sustainability through a technical lens. And we also have a growing community of social scientists, of which you're a part that look at sustainability through a behavioral lens. But you Maxine, you Rudy, and your colleagues, you're opening our eyes to a deeply moral, or if you will, ethical
perspective here. I mean, just looking at the titles of these papers, they scream about human dignity and the need to think about the right and wrong of what we see going on. And let me turn to you, Rudy. When it comes to a message for all of those here at Stanford and in the world who study and see sustainability as a primarily technical or behavioral issue, what's the message that you and all your colleagues at this conference have? [RUDI GHARIB] That is such a, that is such a great question. I mean, I think, yeah, one of the clearest takeaways from the two days is that we simply can't engineer our way out of climate harm without confronting The political, the economic, the social,
the racial issues that have produced this harm. I think the science clearly matters, and we know that, and that's where we started. But the barriers to a just transition, they're not scientific alone. They are really about power, about history, about knowledge and whose knowledge counts and whose lived experiences are legible to the systems that are created and that are meant to protect and Create situations that populations can thrive in. I'd love to hear what Professor Burkett has to say about that, though, because I think this is something that is really the core of the center and how we are working to position not just the work that we're doing every day, but also the research agenda
that we hope to develop for the coming year, as they start to think about what's next. [MAXINE BURKETT] Yeah. Thanks, Rudy. I mean, I think we take as axiomatic that, sustainability is not achievable without, just processes and recognizing human dignity. And in fact, a lot of what we see as the current environmental crises, whether it's pollution crisis, the pollution crisis, biodiversity- The climate crisis itself has really been built upon sacrificing people and communities and nature, and really displacing us from our relationship with nature. And so understanding that is sort of a prerequisite to
this level of crisis making, we really have to address those root problems. So instead of screaming, I think we just have to make it self-evident. And I think we can make a persuasive case that we have to address these issues. It's not an additional nice to have. In fact, a recent publication that I noticed from a colleague of ours at Stanford, Mark Jacobson, is that we still have all of the answers. We still have all of the technical answers. What's the problem then? And I would argue that it's the fact that we haven't paid enough attention to these core pieces.
We've made it more of an ornamental element of doing business versus a core part of that. So in order to meet the project of this beautiful interdisciplinary endeavor that we're all on here at Stanford, I think this justice piece is indispensable. [BILL BARNETT] Boy, an ornamental element of what we're all doing as opposed to Core to our effort. I am going to never forget that. Well, look, we're coming to the close here, but what I'd like to do is open it up to you, Maxine, to give any final words as the As the leading light here at Stanford in environmental justice, how would you like to close this podcast?
[MAXINE BURKETT] Yeah. Thank you, Bill. Just as I was excited for this invitation, I'd like to offer everyone else who's listening an invitation to join us, to collaborate with us, to bring questions, ask questions with us. This is a project that is deeply collaborative as well and recognizes expertise. And citizenship and belonging very broadly. And so I hope everyone can see themselves in this really beautiful project, and I also just wanna add that we're a lot of fun. As heavy as the issues may sound, we really do put a premium on joy, and so this will be a joyful journey. [RUDI GHARIB] Yeah, I will. I'll second that joy.
I mean, we closed the first night of the conference with an incredible Capoeira performance, which was both joyful and meaningful and spiritual. What I think what I'm going to take away from the two days is that the people are doing this work, the legal scholars, the community advocates, the students presenting for the first time, especially that high school student. They're not waiting for permission. The field of environmental justice is moving forward. And the center was created to be in conversation with that movement. With that movement and to give it a home here at Stanford. So yes, please, please join us.
I think the title of the conference, It's not just a conference, it's really an invitation. Preferred Futures is really a question of like preferred by who and what is the imagination that, we can live inside of to create that preferred future. [MILIAN CHEN] I wanna jump in for the last question just 'cause you've all amazingly stated what I was briefly- Briefly covered in a wonderful conference. Is there anything you're super excited about for the future? Things that we can join in on, things that you're hosting, things that were in the conference that may be continuing into the future?
[MAXINE BURKETT] Yeah, I can dive in. I'll let Rudy say more about this, but we are hosting a breakout session at the Stanford Sustainability Forum next week, so that's a very immediate way to engage. I think there will also be collateral from that or additional opportunities to engage specifically on the questions that we're inviting there But we, again, see the conference itself as an introduction to all of the things that we intend to do. So our research agenda, the arts and culture programming, the research practice hub that we're building, all of these pieces are evident in the programming. So look out for lecture series next year, look out
for publications, look out for opportunities to engage with scholars, visual scholars and artists, visual artists as well as performers. So please join our Listserv and access our website. For more of that information. [BILL BARNETT] All right, Rudy, you want to answer that challenge? [RUDI GHARIB] Yeah, I mean, I don't have- I think you have memorized the calendar perfectly, Maxine. Everything I wanted to flag, you mentioned. I will say that I am excited about the idea that justice and finance are in the same conversation. I think that is really exciting.
I really love that the GSB hosts these partnered conferences with the School of Sustainability, I think we, to Maxine's point, we can't get to sustainability without justice. And I think that the financial question is a really big and important piece of that often is not in the same conversation. So I'm excited to see what the iteration of the next conference will look like. [BILL BARNETT] Absolutely. So look, to our audience at home, thank you so much. And on behalf of Millian Chen, Rudy Garib, and Maxine Burkett I'm Bill Barnett.
Until next time. The Stanford Initiative on Business and Environmental Sustainability podcast series is sponsored by the Stanford Graduate School of Business and the Stanford Doerr School of Sustainability. Music by Charged Particles. That's Caleb Hutslar, Mike Rock, and John Krosnick.
