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- If Jason and I wanted to make an investment in soccer, what's your pitch? - Well, I, I think it's the truly global sport. I mean, right now we're, we're in China negotiating broadcast deals for China in terms of revenue. So for the Women's World Cup, it'll be a billion in revenue for next summer. And for the Men's World Cup, you're probably talking upwards of four to six billion, I would say, in that range. So, yeah, I mean, the numbers are, are big, but those are the numbers that go back into, into the sport.
- Welcome back to the Deal. I'm Jason Kelly. - And I'm Alex Rodriguez. - Alright, Alex, coming up on the show, Jill Ellis, she is the Chief Football Officer of FIFA, meaning she's one of the chief architects of the global game of soccer. Also, not for nothing. She won a couple of World Cups in 2015 and 2019 as the head of the US Women's National Team. The World Cup, even if you wanted to escape it, you couldn't. - And I haven't. I'm down in Miami. I mean, it is everywhere. And I cannot wait to dive into the numbers of what FIFA represents - And all eyes are going to be what happens next in the business of soccer coming up, Jill Ellis.
Jill Ellis, FIFA's, Chief Football Officer. You know, Alex, we love to make this show timely. What is more timely than talking to the Chief Football Officer of FIFA on the eve of the World Cup? So let's start there. How are you feeling about this World Cup? - I mean, excited. I think the, what I've learned over time, you know, whether either competing in them or watching them is there's always a lot of controversy. It always feels like a three ring circus kind of getting into there. But once the games kick off, it's, it's magical, so excited.
Obviously, I'm from the US so it's exciting to have a, a world cup back here on the, on the shores of, of America. So I think it's gonna be brilliant. - You're feeling it down in Miami, aren't you? - Oh, there's no doubt. I mean, I think for the first time, Jill, I was born in New York, but I've been in Miami around 40 plus years, and I think soccer right now could be the number one, if not the number one sport, the number one kind of conversation and narrative around, I mean, you got Beckham, you have Messi, you have the, the championship. And there's so many people that are, it's a melting pot.
And I guess my question to you, obviously FIFA, by the way I'll be throwing the, the coin flip. I'm really excited about it. - Amazing. - But sell me in the sport. Like if, if it was an investment, obviously I'm into women's sports with the W, I'm into men's sports with, an NBA team with the Wolves. If Jason and I wanted to make an investment in soccer, what's your pitch? - Well, I, I think it's the truly global sport. I mean, you always hear, obviously you've got American football, baseball, but it, it's played everywhere. So I think you've got an immediate global audience.
There's not a bigger audience for it than obviously the World Cup. I mean, even the Women's World Cup 2 billion viewers in '23. So you've got probably the most global sport out there. I think it's in the US it's trending. I mean, I think it's becoming probably the largest participation sport amongst youth. So you've now got a whole generation of people playing it. You've got established professional leagues here. I mean, 30 plus teams in the MLS, obviously the Women's League. So it's, it's not just emerging anymore.
It's very much here. There's a baked in fan base, you've got an educated fan base, now you've had success. You know, obviously the women's teams had much a lot of success on the global stage. Listen, I think it's, it's a can't miss sport and I think people that are engaging in sport, and especially in America where we make it something that it's can't miss, it's such an exciting sport. I mean, there's nothing like the last five minutes of a, of a soccer game. - You mentioned Jill, the three ring circus of it all. And there are, I mean, it may be a 12 ring circus at this point in, in this lead up.
We're talking to you just, you know, a few weeks before it all kicks off and everybody's talking about something. I've recently, you know, talked with your colleague Gianni Infantino about ticket prices. Yep. People are worried about visas. People are worried about who's gonna pay, like what from your job perspective, like what do you worry about in this, you know, sort of like tense lead up to the, to the matches actually getting played? - I mean, I certainly think it's, you know, you, you wanna have full stadiums. Safety is always something when you think about massive global events that you wanna make sure that those things are in place. But ultimately it's getting the teams here,
getting the stars here. Once, you know, again, we had the Club World Cup last summer and there was a lot of debate and con, you know, controversy about is this the right event? As soon as the matches kick off, the fans are in the stands, people gravitate towards that and it, and it plays out. And I think that's, you know, I think as a, as a former coach as well, you also know there's always the anticipation for that first whistle, that first moment. And then once it happens, I think people settle into it. But, you know, I think one of the things that people have talked about, about this World Cup is we now got 48 teams.
It's the largest World Cup ever. It's going to be, you know, countries debutants here. It'll be, you know, are the games gonna be competitive? And I think that's, going back to my early comment about this sport being truly global is yes, I think on any given day you're gonna see, you know, one of the minnows beat the giants. And that's kind of what the exciting thing about this sport is. You've got such a, well the whole world really participating. - Give us an idea of some of the numbers as far as how many people around the world would watch the, these events, like the last two championship games, for example.
- Yep. - And what kind of revenue would you say it generates? - Well, I think the, the last World Cup, and obviously that was Qatar, I think it was 5 billion globally, the Women's World Cup, 2 billion, - 5 billion. - Yep. - A billion people. - Yep. The Women's World Cup in 23 was 2 billion. We're projecting, you know, 2.5 to 3 billion. I mean, you know, it's broadcast. I mean, right now we're, we're in China negotiating broadcast deals for China. You know, the whole world really tunes in, in terms of revenue. So for the Women's World Cup,
we're projecting this will be a $500 million increase to, it'll be a billion in revenue for next summer in 2027. And for the men's World Cup probably talking upwards of four to six billion, I would say, in that range. So yeah, I mean the numbers are, are big, but it's, those are the numbers that go back into, into the sport. You know, for example, we give, FIFA gives every participating country that's 211, they get FIFA forward money. So the money gets redistributed back into the investment of the sport. - Jason, I have a question for you. Yeah. I mean, you're the business person expert here. When you hear Jill say numbers like a billion for the women, 5 billion, what is the comp that you've seen?
- There is no Comp. I mean, that's the thing is there is no comp. And one of the interesting things, Jill, that, you know, as I've dug into this and, and spending time with Gianni on this, on this topic is, you know, there is so much anticipation around this World Cup in North America because of the scale of it. And you know, one of the things, and I would love to talk a little bit about accessibility and ticket prices, because I asked Gianni this question and he gave me a statistic, which you gotta keep me honest here, Jill, when I repeat it, which is you'll, this is gonna blow your mind. The previous two World Cups, you know, they have, you know, people request tickets and there were 50 million ticket requests for the last two combined.
- Oh my gosh. - For this one World Cup, this one that's coming up, 500 million ticket requests. So 10 x the last two. So I, I guess my question to you, Jill, on that is with that sort of demand, how do you manage the supply? Like what are the, what are the conversations you guys have inside of FIFA? Because you have to manage the economics completely differently with that sort of demand. - Well, in, you know, in fairness, there's a whole team that manages this event, right? Sure. So we have a whole team behind it. But I mean, I think the, you know, the dynamic ticket pricing is, is very real.
You know, I think that's the other thing. FIFA's been taking a lot of hits about the ticket pricing, but the reality is the demand is so big that, you know, you can't control all the resale and all these types of things. But you know, internally it's, I mean, they have to keep a lot back, obviously for partners. How do you eke it out? How do you make sure that the demand is, is there, I mean, we still got certain games that I think we're, we're trying to, to push and to sell, but they, yeah, I mean, they have a whole, a whole branch of, of ticketing experts that go in there and look at everything.
I mean, even when you map out where you want teams to play, right? Who do you want in what venue? I mean, we're doing this currently right now with, with the Women's World Cup. We haven't released the schedule because we're looking at the size of the stadiums. Where do you want teams playing to maximize revenue? And so yeah, this strategy happens years in advance for sure. - That sort of demand, I mean, can you, I, I'm, I'm turning this back on you. I mean, can you fathom that sort of demand?
I mean, you have a couple pretty popular teams, but like, that level is, I mean, it's, it's hard to fathom. - I wish I, I can only dream - Well, and we're getting hit for, you know, ticket prices. But you're, you're right. I mean, the demand is so high that it drives the markets. - And, and so with that sort of demand, Jill, you know, one of the things that comes to mind for me is how do you factor that in on the, on the sporting side, whether it is thinking about the matchups, thinking about which teams and which countries are, are going to be the dominant storylines. How do you maximize that as a business? How do you, how do you lean into it in, on the sporting side?
- Well, it's certainly, I mean, you know, we're playing in massive stadiums, but if you look next summer in Brazil, there's 60, 70,000 seat stadiums. I mean, which for the women's game is, it's massive and it's a heavy lift. So it's, it's exactly that. It's who do you want playing where. Obviously, there's not ultimate control because it's a draw. Yeah. And it's a random draw. But in terms of where teams play, making sure that, you know, South Korea is playing in LA you know, they've got an amazing player there in Son, and so making sure they're on the west coast.
And so it's looking at location, population, you know, and, and obviously general interest. I mean, you know, a team, so for example, last summer, it didn't matter where you put Real Madrid, Real Madrid will sell out. - In the club World Cup. - In the club world, anywhere. And there's certain teams, I mean, Columbia has a phenomenal, every time you see the US play Columbia in, in, in the US on the men's side, it's, it's full of Yellow Jerseys, right? Obviously Mexico, we playing in Mexico. But there's, I mean, there's just an immense amount, especially because we're such a melting pot.
I mean, there's gonna be a large, a large following that will travel, you know, and that's the other thing you think about what, what fans will travel, you know? Right. The Scottish fans will come, they'll travel. I mean, there's just some amazing fan bases. - Jason, we have crazy fans in America. Now in Miami, I'm really feeling it. There's a very European feeling in Miami. Now, they start partying at six, seven o'clock in the morning, drinking. So I guess my question is, who are some of the craziest, most rabid fan bases? If you guys to say a few?
- Listen, the Latin American market is phenomenal. I mean, you know, Argentina bring, amazing fans, Columbia the same. I mean, I think those fans, I mean, they don't stop the entire game moving their arms singing. I mean, it's, it's nonstop. And that's what's gonna be really cool for I think the US fans to experience is, you know, we're kind of like a golf clapping kind of fan base compared to, compared to the rest of the world who are just, you know, rabid for 90 minutes. But yeah, I mean the, the South American fans are brilliant. I mean, listen, my mom was Scottish, God bless her.
Those fans are, they're crazy. They will be probably starting at 6:00 AM but, you know, and then you actually add to that because tailgating's not a thing in Europe for the rest of the world. You now add that you're gonna open up the, potentially the, the stadium earlier. I mean, I think it's, it's gonna be crazy. They have marches to stadiums that's really big things in, in, in this, this world. - Well, and that entertainment piece, I think you'll appreciate this, Alex, it is so fascinating to me because it, and,
and Jill, again, keep me honest here, like it does feel like FIFA as a whole is leaning very much into the sort of entertainment aspect of sports. I mean, I think about what you guys do in Minnesota, I mean, that's just kind of table stakes, but soccer, it feels like, is learning a lot about how to build around the match. Is that fair Jill? - Yeah, I mean, listen, we have offices in Miami now, and I, you know, in fairness, Gianni's spent a lot of time now going to American sports.
We were, we went to an Orlando basketball game, you know, the idea of the players coming out one by one, being introduced. We did that last year in the club World Cup. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of learnings. Just that sport as entertainment is, you know, I think is very real. I mean, you know, last year we walking around stadiums and just seeing the amount of premium hospitality, you don't see that in Europe.
You don't see that in South America in terms of just space. So I think, you know, we're learning a lot, you know, hydration breaks that you can actually commercialize now. I mean, there's all kinds of different things. You know, one of the things he loved was the, the fitness cam, the dance cam. I mean, these are things that in Europe, they're very traditional because the game is the focal point and nobody gets distracted by anything else.
Whereas I think in America, we're used to having a show around the show kind of thing. - Also I can just imagine, Jill, the social impact of social media, the connectivity around the world. There's just massive those numbers. But Jason, I'm also wondering that economic impact to a city like New York, those numbers have to be bonkers. And I'm assuming, Jill, that those fan bases, we just talked about travel very in, in packs, right? - Yep very much so. - And they travel well. - Yeah, I mean, I and Jason, I dunno if you wanna speak to that, but - No, I mean, I think it's very true.
I mean, I, this is one of the big, I dare say like, this is one of the big question marks around this World Cup is, you know, we got a little bit of a preview of it, to your point from the Club World Cup, some good, some bad, you know, in terms of like access to the stadiums and, you know, can people get there? Can they travel there? You know, there's been a lot of talk about how much it's gonna cost to get to MetLife. I mean, these are, these are the kinks that definitely are being worked out that probably, I mean, certainly in the last World Cup in, in Qatar, you know, you and I were in Doha together and, and, and actually spent some time talking about the
sort of these mega events. Everything was very Yeah, very contained. You could go to multiple matches in a day in different stadiums. Here it's much more spread out. I think these are, these are big questions that we actually won't know until the matches really get underway, right? - Correct. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, you know, again, I think some events are still selling how much fans will travel.
I mean, obviously, you know, visas issues coming into the country, I think, you know, we're trying to mitigate those as much as possible. But, you know, sometimes people's hesitation, I mean, we saw it last year, CONCACAF hosted their tournament and you know, at the time people were uncertain about going to the stadiums. But, you know, I think the Club World Cup showed last year that, you know, when you get there, it's, it is a great event. It's a safe event. But I mean, there's nothing quite like coming and seeing, you know, you experienced it with the baseball World Cup Yeah.
Countries that national pride. There really isn't anything quite like it. - Yeah. It's almost like ten to one to a regular game or even a playoff game. Yeah. Because for example, in Miami, I had a very much of a European soccer feel where there was like concerts going on five, six hours before the game, and people were chanting and they had their flags and it, it's just a very patriotic like, theme that is, it's hard, it's hard to describe unless you're there. - So it, it's interesting in talking to you, Jill, even for, for the past little bit about how fluidly you move in your job, and obviously based on your experience
between the men's game and the women's game, it is not at all hyperbole to say you have been a chief architect of the women's game globally and, and certainly in this country. Where are we in that journey? You know, I mean, I know we're all very focused on the World Cup, the men's World Cup this summer, but there'll be one next summer for the women. How would you describe the state of the women's game? - I mean, I think it's, you know, the signals are out there, right?
We're seeing attendances go up. I mean, I think the Denver NWSL team, it was 62,000, 63,000. So you're seeing a lot of these amazing signals, you know, the Women's World Cup next year. And so yes, I'm, I straddle both, but, but obviously have one eye on next summer as well, because, you know, this will be the first, I mean, it was $500 million I think they made off of the last one. Now we're looking a billion and a hundred percent of that money will be reinvested in the women's football, which is huge. But we're also seeing the ecosystem grow.
We're seeing now club championships for global club championships for women. Like we have on the men's side. We're seeing professional leagues become more stable, become more, you know, in terms of attendance investment. So I, you know, I think, listen, I, and even internally in FIFA it used to be that everything, and, and this was true. And I think in a lot of sports, you sell the men's game, the women's game was an add-on. You sell this, it was an add-on. Now we're unbundling rights. We've just got the most, the highest media deal ever for next summer's World Cup.
Netflix is paying for a one month tournament, which is incredible numbers. So we're suddenly seeing this unbundling unpackaging because I think it can stand alone. - Yeah. And, and so to that point, you know, I, I've followed the NWSL very closely for a number of years now. And, you know, it was not that long ago and you remember it well, I'm sure that this was a league that was in existential crisis. You know, the Yates Report, 2022 comes out, you and a lot of other people were, you know, in that report and there was a concern that the league wouldn't go on.
What's changed? Like what, what, what has happened in those intervening years that gives you confidence that women's soccer and especially women's soccer in this country is on the right track? - Well, I think it's, you know, it's stability. I mean, we're, we're, we're in our third iteration of a women's professional league. Yeah. So the first two failed. So this one has now been, I think we're in year 13. Perhaps you're seeing the growth of it in terms of teams added, you know, we went from 12, now we're at 16. So you're just seeing all of the, all of the numbers go up in that.
But I think it's just, it's the professionalization of the game, I think at its core. I mean, if you put the players in the middle of it, it was part-time contracts. It was paying for their own luggage to get on planes. It was things that just, you know, shouldn't really happen in professional sports. Now you're seeing legitimate minimum standards imposed. You're seeing, you know, facilities being specifically built now for women's teams. So there's just a lot more stability.
I think there's a lot more attention on it, there's a lot more regulation of the sport as well in terms of, you know, expectations and, and like I said, minimum standards. So I think all of those things attribute to it. - I can tell you, Jill, when you were speaking, I was like, wait a minute, is she speaking about the WNBA? It was exactly the same playbook. Yep. And the same traction, but I was recently at the WNBA draft. - Yep. - And we had the second pick, and I had an opportunity to speak to a lot of the young women. And I said to a few of them, I said, are you excited?
Is your family happy? She goes, heck yeah, I'm a millionaire. I'm gonna be a millionaire. And they said it was such pride and they deserve it. And I do think that the economic growth and the compensation is gonna recruit other young women to say, why can't I also play the WNBA? I wanna be a millionaire. - What's interesting is, and, and I don't know if this is the same, but in women's soccer, women's football, for example, as the sport is growing and the ecosystem is growing, and the players for sure are getting more, we're actually seeing less women in leadership roles, in coaching and the sidelines. So as it becomes more economically viable, you're now seeing a lot of men going into, you know, for example, coaching.
We only have, I think, three head coaches that are female in the NWSL in the women's professional league in England, I think it's two to three. So we also have to make sure we're investing not just in the players, but the pathway forowners, for leadership, for GMs, for these other roles in women's sports, I think is, is a part of that. - Isn't one of the changes that you made that every team must have at least one female head coach or coach? - An assistant or a head coach, yeah.
I mean and the reality is you hope these things happen organically, but they haven't. I mean, listen, the US Title IX was a game changer for us in terms of access and opportunity, but we're seeing less and less women on the sidelines. And I think, you know, this was a passion for Gianni. He, I mean, he was like, I want every head coach to be female. I'm like, we're not quite there yet. We've gotta make sure that these, these coaches are prepared, that they have, you know, experience that they have education through coaching licenses. So it's not just creating the, the regulation, it's creating the pathway to the regulation.
- Yeah. I read a, a quote of yours about your current job that, that you said you didn't come into this job to, and, and again, keep me honest here, to protect comfort. And you're a straight talker. What is some straight talk that you've given to your colleagues at FIFA and to Gianni about growing the women's game and what FIFA's role can be in ensuring that, you know, these, in investment terms, these gains are consolidated? - Well, yeah, I mean, yes. And Gianni appreciates, you know, the straight talk. I mean, I just gave a, a speech to Congress and basically to the 211 presidents of the Federation just sort of said to them, like,
if you don't, if you don't invest in women's football, you're missing out. Your countries care about winning. It's not just by the way a gender thing, it's about winning. So, you know, provoking and encouraging people to invest because, you know, and I said in this speech's not an obligation. It, it shouldn't be an obligation. It should be something you look at as a viable economic decision as you move forward. But yeah, I mean, just conversations, you know, looking at how we look at how media rights are framed, you know, pushing, yes, we've got a great deal with America, but yes, guess what the rest of the world should also be paying. So it's, it's everything from media rights deals to meeting with our CMO Romy
and, you know, pushing into sort of challenging him to sort of say, hey, listen, this is packaged. How many standalone do we have for the Women's World Cup? So a lot of different conversations around that. But ultimately it's like, what are we doing? I mean, like the Club World Cup for women, it's, it's now a real thing. The first iteration will be in 2028. It's important that it's a high standard. And I've said to them, we've gotta have it in an area, in a region, hopefully it'll be here in the US that we can commercialize it, that we can really give it what it deserves in terms of access around the world, viewership.
- Alright, we're gonna move to our rapid fire. Pretty easy. We'll bounce it back and forth. I'll start in then you pick up. You ready? - I'm ready. - Alright. Favorite World Cup memory as a coach? - France 2019 quarterfinals. - Favorite World Cup memory as a fan? - Qatar. Last World Cup final. Amazing. France, Argentina Classic. - Yeah. That was a hell of a match. A storyline you're most excited about going into this World Cup?
- Just the debutantes, the new teams I think is exciting. - One change to the World Cup you would make tomorrow? - I would put 500 tickets aside for kids. Just for kids to come. - All right. That's a good one. Underrated host city for 2026. - Ooh. God. My wife's from Kansas City so I can't say that. I don't think there is one. I think there's, I think these cities are gonna be amazing. - Favorite player of all time? - Oh, Maradona. Male player, Maradona.
- And women? - Women's player, I would probably go with Marta. - Team you'd like to see win a championship more than any? - My team since I was seven was Man United. So I go, we need to get back on top. World Cup. Come on, I wanna see the US win a World Cup, Men's World Cup. - Jill Ellis, thank you so much. This was really fun. Thank you so much guys. Appreciate you. Thank you.
