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your [sing] new family. Good morning Stefano. Good morning Luchino. How are you? Very good, thank you. What are we talking about today? Today we're talking about one of the things that we're all strangely afraid of when we learn a foreign language, that is, making mistakes, strangely or not strangely, as we'll show today, because in the end we're all subjected to this scholastic ordeal of speaking a foreign language, and it's not just about speaking a foreign language, it's really a tour mentality, as they say, of making mistakes, an approach to life, right? Ah, I made a mistake, we see it as a problem
when instead it should be a sign of progress, right? And this is very important. And that's exactly what we're talking about So, then, why are we afraid of making mistakes? Here, good question. So why are we afraid of making mistakes? Well, as usual we could talk about it, we could talk about it for hours and hours, however, getting to the point, in my opinion it's a societal problem, that is, basically when we're little we don't worry at all about making mistakes. In fact, I'll tell you, when we're little we're also very cheeky in saying and expressing everything we think. There are currently no filters. Those filters are literally installed after the fact because
we are programmed by society not to go out of our way, so to speak, not to go out of our way, that is, not to do things that theoretically shouldn't be done. But who decides what can and should not be done? Obviously there are social norms, but in terms of, let's say, expressing oneself, very often children's creativity and enthusiasm and imagination are somewhat limited by the school system. We are taught in school that we have to conform, we are taught that we have to impress rather than express ourselves. And in English we say do not impress, right? I really like this concept, focusing on expressing yourself like children do, rather than making an impression like adults who focus on form but not on the message,
right? So, in my opinion, one of the key points is social and psychological. We are all afraid of making mistakes in general and especially when learning languages. When we learn languages at school, we don't see that red when we make a mistake , no, that red I used to see on the sheet of paper when the homework was graded, and our mind begins to associate red with error, red with failure, when in fact mistakes should be celebrated. Did you make this mistake? It's what you do with the mistake that matters in the modern mentality, let's say, of the school system, but also within the, let's say, within the family context, very often the mistake is not celebrated, it is instead, um, stigmatized, right? And this is a
mechanism that is passed down from generation to generation. The parents have undergone the same treatment and so they pass it on to us. Parents and teachers who were themselves children of someone who, let's say, unfortunately, passed on this type of approach. Well, this is my personal opinion, but speaking with hundreds of people from all over the globe, I understood that it is a global problem and not just an Italian one. I don't know what you think, Stefano. In fact, I completely agree with this, this problem of scholastic perfectionism is one of the main problems, at least as far as error management in language learning is concerned.
Um, and also the fact that we are no longer children and therefore have lost that cheekiness you mentioned is a very important factor, that is, as adults we have become accustomed to knowing how to function, knowing how to speak, and therefore, um, not making so many mistakes. We do them in our native language without knowing it, though, but let's just say that at least we've gotten used to knowing how to function with others, so going back and starting from scratch is like a shock, isn't it? And we have to relearn all these things and what are we exposing ourselves to? to mistakes, to embarrassing situations, but as you've already pointed out, it all really depends on how you handle the mistake. I mean, you can fall off your
bike many times when you learn to walk, but the important thing is that you get up and get back in the saddle, with the experience you've gained from the mistake you made, right? and then from there on you'll probably be able to ride a bike better, you'll be able to walk better, etc. Eh we really need to change, change, let's say, the way we manage errors. Another thing I've noticed is that there's this illusion of infinite preparation, that is, this whole waiting to talk to others for fear of making a mistake, waiting and thinking I'll talk when I'm ready, right? Exact. But there is such a thing as being truly 100% ready. eh it doesn't exist because perfection doesn't exist. So, in my opinion, it's about it,
if I had to summarize in very few words the key to getting out of this problematic loop, it's abandoning perfectionism. This beautiful. By the way, I wanted to say that when you talked about the fact that one is never actually ready and we talk about it in the third point of this podcast, it's like having children, like saying to yourself "Okay, I'll have a child when I'm ready", but you're never really ready. So speaking the language is strange, not trying to learn a foreign language, exactly like that, there are things you are never ready for, you delude yourself into thinking you are preparing, getting ready when the best thing is if you are convinced you are just doing it. and we'll talk about that in a moment, but you raised a number of
very interesting points. Let's get to the second point, which is what in English is called mindset or mental approach, and that is, it does n't matter whether you make mistakes or not, because everyone makes mistakes, even in our native language. The interesting thing though is that in our native language we have a different mentality if you think about it. When you speak your native language, you speak with another native speaker, the other native speaker will not focus on the mistakes you made. For example, in Italian there is this concept of prescriptive and descriptive grammar. We won't go into details now, but very often almost all Italians, even in written texts, tell them when they should use their, for example, è dico loro, that is,
I say to their plural. Most Italians say I tell him. And this is not only used in spoken Italian, but also in written Italian. Yet no one notices why we focus on the message when speaking in our native language, while in the target language or a foreign language we suddenly regress to the stage where we focus more on the form, that is, on how we say things, rather than the things we say. And in this regard, the mentality, the approach to mistakes, in my opinion, makes a huge difference: seeing every mistake you make as a small step forward. However, it is important to consider one thing of fundamental importance. When you make a mistake, it's also important to know what to do next, because those who don't
reflect on it-and this applies to both life and strictly linguistic errors-don't learn and continue to repeat the same mistakes. So, when someone makes a mistake, for example, if you have people listening to us in a class, a lesson with Stefano, for example, with a language teacher and Stefano gives you a series of corrections or notes, makes a series of observations on some mistakes you've made, the important thing is to take those observations or feedback, as they say, save them, maybe listen to them again, listen to that specific part several times and then maybe implement these errors, that's how you grow. Whereas if you keep thinking, "Oh, I made a mistake," and you can choose to either ignore it or
even be embarrassed about it, you won't move forward. So in my opinion, as you rightly pointed out before, the important thing is what you do with the corrections and the mental approach to the corrections themselves. I know what you think, Stefano, you have a lot of experience as a language teacher too, so making mistakes is part of learning, that is, in practice we cannot learn without making mistakes, so we have to make mistakes. Exactly. Um, and the more you get it wrong, the better. The more you make mistakes, the more you learn, right? The more you make mistakes, the more you leave your comfort zone, the more you make mistakes, the more you learn. If you want to learn, the third
step is important, right? Exact. Stepping out of your comfort zone is key. Well, when we make mistakes, we probably took the right step outside of our comfort zone and so we now have an extra tool to improve even more. But, well, I'll just make one observation about your courses, no, about language schools, etc., because in recent years I've worked a lot in this field, so I'd like to say my piece on this. I have increasingly noticed that precisely because of this scholastic legacy of mistakes being experienced badly, experienced as failure, very often when we propose exercises in our courses, students tend to experience them as tests, okay? eh how to test themselves to see if they have already learned everything, if they have already learned everything. But
this is an attitude, I don't want to say wrong, but I want to say counterproductive, okay? That gets you nowhere. Well, the exercises in a course, in a, uh, in a language school must actually be an integral part of the lesson, that is, a tool for continuing to learn. Tests are basically useless, right? Eh why do I say that? Because, uh, with the exercise I'm trying to put the theory into practice, okay? Eh, but I don't want to know if you've already learned, I want to know, I want to help you practice. If you know the right answer, you're still practicing. But if you don't know the right answer, that's a gap, a void we can fill,
you know? So it's just the point of view is completely different. Guys, when you do exercises in some courses, remember that it 's not a test, you don't necessarily have to know the right answer already, it's part of the learning process. Marvelous. And with that we move on to point number three. By the way, Stefano, I agree with you on everything as usual. Sometimes we don't agree, but it's matured. Come on, yes, come on, it happens. every now and then it Um, point number three is how to do it in practice, because we talked about the fact that, okay, the why comes from the way our society is structured, the way we move
from age, let's say, from children to adults. The second point is precisely the change of perspective which is very important and the third point is how to do it in practice. In particular, I wanted to tell you a couple of things and then you tell me what you think of your experience. So, I'll tell you what I think is a useful, concrete, and simple approach, and then I'll tell you a little story-a story to Stefano and to you who are listening to us and watching us, or both-I'll tell you a funny little story. First of all, in my opinion, the approach to making mistakes, let's say, to dealing with them, is very simple, and that is, in life when you have a fear, I know I'm about to say something very banal, but unfortunately life is simple but not
easy. Learning languages is simple but not easy. There are things we know we have to do but we do n't do them because from an intellectual point of view they are clear, from an emotional point of view they are another story. Um, in this regard, I have a fair amount of fear of doctors, and I don't think I'm the only one, so very often, we often talk about it with Stefano too, eh, he procrastinates. If you procrastinate, it means you have a physical problem, so what do you do? Ah, maybe it passes, but from a rational, intellectual point of view, you know that you have a physical problem, you are a problem of the body, you go to the doctor, the doctor sees it and solves it. If the problem persists, it
can only get worse if you don't see a doctor. From a logical point of view, it makes perfect sense. Emotionally, we procrastinate because there are negative emotions, who knows what will happen, the worst case scenario, etc. This also applies to conversations with or a conversation with native speakers. We are catastrophists, we are terrified, anxiety takes hold of us. All the anxieties, fears, and mental limitations that have been imposed on us materialize when we have to speak a foreign language, especially if we do n't speak it well yet. And I would like to add a personal note. My father was an absolutely important figure, but he was a great perfectionist. This didn't help me when it comes to, let's say, performance because when
I learn a language, despite, eh, 34-35 years of experience, you have to start from scratch for each language and you have to somehow re-face the fears you have. So emotionally it's still difficult. However, the concrete solution is to get things done. Every time I faced a situation that scared me, such as going to the doctor, speaking a foreign language even if I don't know it well, or many other things, facing, for example, real-life situations such as asking for a ticket or going to the supermarket, it happened a few years ago, for example, the infamous woman in the cabin at the Budapest station who had a look that looked like Terminator or Terminatrix.
And as I approached the cabin, I already knew I was entering the jaws of the Lion, I asked her something in Swedish, she has, excuse me, in Hungarian she has yes, why not? Swedish, otherwise he wouldn't have understood very well Swedish, I remember he was in a very bad mood, like in the Soviet style, also because Hungary was part of the Soviet Union and in a certain way part of the Iron Curtain and so he answered me very brusquely, but in the end I was happy to do it. So the gist of all this rant and flight of fancy is simply that as banal as it may seem, if you're afraid to speak up and make mistakes, do it because the first step is the one that will make a difference for everything that comes after. Every single episode where you
expose yourself to something you're afraid of and make mistakes, because it's normal to do so, will bring you closer to the goal of assuming, let's say, acquiring that, that self-confidence. I felt confidence, confidence which is another aspect we will talk about later, false friends in quotation marks or linguistic interferences and it will lead you to speak a foreign language and in this case Italian and with mastery. Here, thanks Luca. I feel like mentioning a little trick that I used and that I still use sometimes when I want to have a conversation in a language that I don't master yet, and that is, before this conversation, if possible, if the context allows it, make a little introduction with
this person, that is, clearly say I'm learning, we can have this conversation in Italian, for example. I'm learning. In this way, we lower the expectations of the person we are talking to, but also of ourselves, which are often the most problematic, isn't it? We often set expectations for ourselves that the rest of the world, the outside world, doesn't actually set, but we know very well that's how it works. Sometimes this little trick that I call the contract is like signing a contract with the person in front of you. I'm learning your language, can we have this conversation in your language? If the context allows, he tells you yes. this person tells you
yes, then expectations are lower and it's almost more like, you're more calm and you can make mistakes more easily. Exact. This is for the first few experiences of course, but I also want to close by share with you and our listeners a couple of embarrassing situations I've made, mistakes I still remember, because there's still a small lesson to be learned. So, in French, here in Brussels, when I moved to Brussels, I didn't know French and to order an ice cream cone I used a word that is obviously a swear word, right? So, instead of at the ice cream shop, instead of ordering a cone, I ordered a and then a swear word which is an insult. Here, I ordered an insult. Um, I never forgot, how to say
ice cream cone in French. Same thing in Finnish. I once said that I cleaned my teeth with a tree trunk instead of a toothpick. And what happened? Of course the other people laughed, eh, they burst out laughing and I remember that day I laughed along with them. So learning to laugh at your mistakes is actually another one of these keys that allows you to live the mistake you made positively, to live it as a lesson learned and secondly to highlight that moment in such a way that you will never forget the correct way to say these words. So I won't make the same mistake again. Speaking of embarrassing mistakes, I wanted to tell you, something else just occurred to me. It wasn't mine.
The mistake was made by a friend of mine who was, among other things, a colleague at the interpreting school, he was learning French, he was Italian-German in Paris and at a certain point in the restaurant he says "Es que salop s'il vous plaît". instead of esalop s'il vous plaît, that is, he confused the word escalop which means scallop in quotation marks with salop which means prostitute. So imagine the situation where someone stops the waitress and says, "Excuse me, can I have two prostitutes, please?" A couple of prostitutes? So you can imagine the young lady's face and the fact that, like you, she will never forget the difference between scallops and prostitutes in French. With this we conclude. I just wanted to give a quick
recap of the fact that today we talked about three main aspects: why we're afraid of making mistakes, the paradigm shift or change in mental approach that is important to make, let's say, a qualitative leap, and then the real qualitative leap is made by doing things. Doing things means stepping out of your comfort zone and essentially speaking out, making mistakes, but learning from your mistakes. Because there, what happens next, what you do next, is important. Feedback is crucial, but what you do with that feedback is also one of those factors that is rarely talked about, but is of fundamental importance. And please share with us your fears, your biggest mistakes, the embarrassing situations, let's say, that have made you grow
intellectually, emotionally and ultimately linguistically and let's try to laugh about it together because. Exactly, laugh with you, we laugh with you, you laugh with us. Thank you so much Stefano, it's always a pleasure. See you in the next episode. Good day. Thank you all. Until next time.
