15:20
Budget announcements, it turns out, aren't always the final word. The pressure is on the government over its contentious tax changes, and we're all waiting to see how much ground the government might give. And on another front, there also appears to be some movement this week. I'm talking about the long debated inland rail project. Now, inland rail was originally set to connect Melbourne all the way to Brisbane, but just ahead of the budget, the government announced the project would only run as far north as parks in central New South Wales. The line was being cut short, the government said, due to an enormous cost blowout. It was going to cost more than $45 billion to complete. In truth, there were always
doubts about how to connect this thing through to Brisbane and what it might cost. Well, for some years, a private consortium had been working on a proposal to instead build an extension of inland rail from Gun Wendy, which is on the New South Wales Queensland border, up to Gladston instead of Brisbane. Now, this consortium is putting a new plan on the table, which could still see the line built from parks all the way up to Gladston with private funding. Is it a viable idea? Well, the prime minister held a meeting this week with the main proponent, a man by the name of Eil Compton, who is himself known as the father of inland rail. Evil Compton has been pursuing the dream of inland rail and lobbying
governments for 30 years on the issue. And in fact, his lobbying efforts on other projects and issues goes back much, much further. The 94 year old has met and dealt with every prime minister since Robert Menses. Not sure anyone else in the country can make that claim. So I'm keen to catch up with every find out whether this inland rail dream is going to be realized. I'm David Spears on Naval Country at Parliament House in Canra. Welcome to Insiders on Background Emerald. Great to catch up with you and I will get your thoughts on uh who have been the best prime ministers of the many you've dealt with. Um it is a remarkable history you have but let's start with this project that you've been
so closely associ associated with for the last 30 years or so. Inland rail where is it at? What did you discuss with the prime minister and what sort of indications did Anthony Albanesei give you this week? We discussed the project and the reasons why the government declined to provide funding for the railway beyond parks. It actually hasn't yet been completed between Melbourne and parks, but they that's due what end of next year. Is that the is that the time frame to get to parks at the moment? Well, I'm no one's too sure when the time frame is, but so long as it gets there by 2030, that will, you know, suit me. But above parks, they're not providing any funding. Now, I can
understand that the prime minister had to decide to cut the funding on what has been an outrageously costly exercise that should never have cost the money that it has. It was feather bedded with staff, contractors that weren't necessary. Legal action against land owners that wasn't necessary. everything that could have gone wrong with this project gone wrong with it. So I can understand why the prime minister said we got to cut the bleeding. But I said to him I was disappointed he didn't have a more positive approach as to you know what could happen next. And he was willing to listen. And I pointed out that for the last 5 years I've been working with a team a great team of
people on planning a railway line from the port of Gladston which is the best deep water port in eastern Australia to have it Gladston connected to the national rail system just south of Gondindi the old system and I've been working on that for 5 years now and I pointed out to the prime minister we've got a long way and it's viable based on shipping containers coming into Glaston in considerable uh considerable volumes. And when he decided to stop at parks, it meant that our project was dead because he'll build a railway from Glaston to Gundy that doesn't link up with inland rail in the efficiency that it should. And so the project was dead and he understood that and I said I believe that my
consortium can extend the thing from Gladston Gundy to Glen Gundy parks that I believe we can get the funding that's needed. Baron Joey, the investment bankers are my adviserss and provided governments give us shity by giving us uh unrestricted prime permanent mandate to do the job we can do it. Now he was happy to listen and he asked me all sorts of questions and in the end he said to the transport minister Katherine King who was in the room and who was being very supportive of what the prime minister said. He asked her to get her team together in her department and start negotiating with me to get to the point where it could be taken over by private capital and I was very happy with that. We just shook hands on the fact that
negotiations had begun. The prime minister couldn't say to me you all the jobs yours that would have looked like a job for the boys thing. We got to go through all the legal process that happened. But this thing is on and in my view now unstoppable. And so they've done some works between parks and Gundy which will have to be valued and the Australian Rail Track Corporation gets shares for the work they've done. But we can finish this and we can have Gladston uh we can have Gun to Windy hooked up by 2030 and building at the same time from Gladston. The whole thing should be open by 2032 and come in under budget and on time.
Interesting. All right. Just to pick up a couple of things you said there. Um, who is who are the private backers? You mentioned Baron Joey, the financial advisers here, but who's who's paying for this ultimately? Well, well, the money will be raised eventually when we get to financial close from superanuation funds, private investors, infrastructure funds around the world. And that appetite's there. You reckon? They're they're keen. Well, well, we've done our sampling of them. And the main reason why donors don't come out right now and say we are definitely putting money in is that investors in infrastructure don't trust governments. Now governments of all
colors and in the state and federal parliament for years have on many occasions encouraged private investors to start infrastructure and then partway through it the government will change and the next mob don't want it to happen and things happen. investors don't trust governments. They only do that if we get a prime mandate that governments cannot back out of. The governments are not just saying this is a nice idea. They're saying you've got authority to build it and unless you break laws, we're going to let you build it. And so investors know they won't understand money. So that prime mandate, would that have to go to a tender that you would have to
be contesting? Well, it technically it could, but I don't think it will because I have proved for 30 years that I'm just not a fly by night guy who came through the door to dream this up. There's no one else out there who's done that long. And I can tell you that I've been looking for investors all over the place for 30 years and I know where they are, but none of them will come in without this. I don't have note anybody else who wants to get involved in this. You can tell them on this program to line up at my office and provided they're legitimate people there in there's no such thing as me having a majority.
We're talking about $15 billion. So sorry 15 billion. I was going to ask you what's the estimated cost or is it too early to be able to estimate getting from parks up to Gundy and then to Gladston? What sort of dollars? Well, we think it's an extra it's 5 billion to get the gun to India and another 10 billion to get to Glen. Now cost depend on how much Donald inflation Donald Trump causes around the world in the meantime that we're at a whole range of factors that until I can have the right to examine all the books of account of what's been done now and what's happening it estimates. But right now, we're saying 15 uh billion dollars. That should do it. And uh and we will work a lean mean operation.
We're not going to employ expensive consultants. We're going to employ bright young Australians who are half my age, who've got the enthusiasm and the youthful experience to bring this thing in under budget and on time. the way in which we won't be bleeding the country to death in any way in the course of doing it. Well, I don't know whether too many people younger than you have the enthusiasm you do, Errol, but uh in terms of getting a return on that. You're confident that investors who are willing to stump up the money would get a return and how would that work? Would it be I you talking about what shipping containers coming in or out of Gladston um going onto this inland rail and the
private consortium or the private investors being able to recoup their investment through that? Well, look, basically most infrastructure investor hope they'll get a 15% return on their capital, earnings on their capital every year once the thing is up and running because you got to wait while the thing's built and whatever. So wherever we can building the railway and bits we'll have trains running regionally with freight long before we finished the whole thing so that people start getting a return but investors come in knowing uh that they've got to wait for their return but they also know that once it's up and running and that return is there shares then become very valuable and they'll get some capital gain from that if they
ever if they ever bail out. But I've got no doubt that we can get the money. And in terms of freight, right now the shipping companies of the world want to bring the biggest freighters they can, those massive ones to Australia. There's only two ports in eastern Australia who can handle those big freighters. One's Glennon and the other Sydney. But you don't go into Sydney HR and drop thousands of crates. Logistically, the land operation in Sydney City can't handle it. that they can handle it at Gladston. And so the shipping companies of the world, we've been in touch with them in principle. We got to sign them up yet. They're very
keen to send a big boat to Gladston, drop all the freight there and go back to the world while it gets distributed from Gladston, either by road or rail or by little ships going south. But with our railway, we're going to build it to have freight trains that go 100k an hour. We can get freight from Gladston down to Sydney coming in the back way four days quicker than if the boat went on and Melbourne seven days quicker than if the boat went on. And the same going the other way back with exports. The whole thing is based on containers. And my forecast is I won't live to see it. Gladston will become the Rotterdam of Australia in terms of h of how this happens. So we're looking at
a at a freight revolution. We're also looking at setting up little industries all the way from Gladston to Melbourne when this is done in all small communities value adding whatever they produce there to encourage the growth of those communities. Governments all my life have been saying we're going to revolutionize the bush. Well, I want them to give low interest loans to people who can start businesses out there and people can leave the cities and come out to a place like Gandi and get a house twice the size for half the price with no pollution all around them and have a good life. And so this thing's quite dramatic, David.
No, it look it all sounds very uh positive. You've known Anthony Albanes for many years. He's an infrastructure guy. He often, you know, reminds us that he was minister for infrastructure for a long time. He ced some flak uh you know obviously from the nats and in the bush generally for calling a halt to inland rail at parks. But do you think he's genuinely keen on your idea here? I mean give us a sense of how likely you think it is that Anthony Albanes will see this through. I've known Anthony Albani for 25 years. Like all of them, he's a politician. They make mistakes sometimes. Sometimes they do things they shouldn't do. But I have a level of trust. We're not close friends, but I have a level of trust
that I think that he's aware that having made the decision he did to stop it at parks, he must allow alternatives for this to happen. And the whole thing went way beyond just this railway has not been completed. The people in the bush believe they've been shortch changed for investment since the beginning of time. We've got a nation in which 80% of the population is in the capital cities and the surrounds of the capital cities and only 20% left. A and the bush has missed out. There's no two ways about it. Not just un under Albany. Even every national party, country party, government still didn't look after the bush because they know the votes are in the cities. And so we've got a situation where this has just brought to
a head the long-standing feeling in the bush that they've been left behind and that they're a good place to live, a hell of a lot better place to live than wound up in a capital city. Let's talk a bit about uh your role over the many years, Emerald, on this issue and other issues. I mean, let's start with Anthony Albanesy. You mentioned that you've got some trust for him. How does he compare to the other what is it 14 prime ministers that you've dealt with? Well, well, that's a very good question. I mean, it would be politically smart for me right now, seeing I want Elbow to cooperate with me to say that Elbow's number one.
I'm almost inclined, you know, to say that. But look, look, over the years, I first went to see Robert Menses when I was at age 26. I'd been appointed two years earlier to build St. Andrews Hospital for the Presbyterian Church of which I'm an active member. and I raised the money and built the first two sections. And when I they started at age 24, age 26, we needed some government money. And because we're a Presbyterian hospital, I went to CRA to see Bob Menses, who was a Presbyterian. Now, Bob was wise enough to Sir Robert, I mean, was wise enough uh not to give us money because we're Presbyterians, but he recognized Brisbane needs another public hospital. Now, now Menses was a bloke
who he looked like the prime minister. He acted like the prime minister, superbly dressed. When he walked into the room, he sort of commanded the room. Was he intimidating? Well, he could be if you took him that way, but I mean, I think if you took in account his person, he was an overpowering person. I mean, so was G Whitlam. I mean, Goff Whittam was an he was one of the probably the greatest visionary of my lifetime was Goff Whittam. No two ways about that except he didn't have the ability to put his visions into practice but at a visionary you know he was but I mean Mensy certainly he was prime minister for 19
odd years nobody's ever going to alter that and it was a time of relative prosperity for Australia so you'd have to put him somewhere near the top it's controversial for me to say it but I developed a very good working relationship with Julia Gillard when she was prime minister in most difficult circumstances where she had to rely on five independents and I was chairman of national seniors Australia at the time and I found when I went to her I could get in I would get a good hearing and and I would get a decision I might like the decision but I got one and I think she would enthral now I think her misogyny speech and I was at parliament the day ever was one of the greatest speeches ever made in the Australian
parliament having said that she lost the confidence of a party and the confidence of the voters. But if you want to say to me who would I like to give number one to, it would be Julia Gill. That's so interesting. And of course, she's the only woman on that list of the 15 PMs you've dealt with. I mean, what does that tell you of her? Well, she also had two leaders of the opposition. She had to fight Tony Abbott and Kevin Rudd at the same time. Nobody else has done that, but she passed more legislation in her two and a half years than any other prime minister in Australian history. So I well now got on well with Bob Hawk. He was an absolute lar. And in terms of the other prime
ministers, you mentioned Goff Whittam there and look only there for a short time by comparison, but what did what did you call him? Uh a great visionary. Look, he had a marvelous vision of Australia, you know, God with him. I was in the house when he got the legislation through to have equal pay for women, you know, equal pay for equal work. And the opposition under Billy Snedden, I think it was hotly opposed to saying if you pay women the same as you pay men, you know, we're uh the country is going to go bankrupt. and they thought him and he got it through a and uh then the opposition changed tech and they then said well it's true but let's admit women never do the same quality work as men women can't
do it and even to this day as you know we still don't have equality of wage but Goff Whittam put his soul right into that and I think it was one of the great pieces of Australian legislation and an example of what a visionary can do and said it's just a pity that for instance G Whittham didn't have Paul Keading running the books of the show when he was prime minister because Paul Keading uh was for an uneducated bloke didn't go to university had one of the best brains I've ever come across he also had a delightful ability to annoy people and have the most crushing oneliners he could trot out in parliament than ever I've heard But if he and Whittam had been together, we would have had a different show.
Interesting. Who is the most difficult prime minister to work with? That's Well, put it this way. Billy McMahon was without doubt the weakest and poorest prime minister of my time. So, it was difficult in the sense that Billy didn't really know what you were talking about. It's not easy to sort of say, well, uh, you know, who was the most difficult? every one of them had good things and every one of them had uh you know had bad things about them. And the thing is and you touched on it earlier the political environment has changed so much over those many years. I mean, you would have witnessed enormous change. Uh, you know, politicians, prime ministers with more minders around them, more scrutiny on the decisions they're making, a 24/7
media cycle. I mean, ultimately, it does still come down to the willingness to make the right decision for the nation. But what have been the biggest changes you've noticed for better or worse over those years dealing with prime ministers? Well, when I first experienced, you know, politics, uh, it was in an age when people tended to go into parliament when they were had a successful career behind them, whether it was in business or the law or accounting or farming or something other, and they want to go in with a sense of serving the nation. and uh we even had a bloke like Joe Baki Peterson who wouldn't join the superanuation fund because he said you know you're supposed to be there serving the country and he never ever took superenuation
Joe so people had a sense of I'm here to serve the country now it's moved and it's all about power in a way that power wasn't exercised back you know back then of course the 247 newspaper makes power, you know, incredible. But right now, everything that happens in parliament is fundamentally about have we got power? Have we not got power? And I remember one old colle ever as an MP unless you got the checkbook. If you haven't got the checkbook, it's no good turning up. Sitting in opposition is the greatest waste of time you know you ever had. So there is now a thing in which power uh dominates. And I remember having a scotch with John H one night at the lodge where he said to me well when I
get up at question time he said people think the people in front of me are my enemies the opposition. He said the he said half the people behind me want my job every said I've got to spend time every day making sure that I am the prime minister tomorrow. and that's how power influences the whole show, doesn't it? It certainly does. Uh Emerald, such so good to talk to you. And I look, I could keep talking to you about prime ministers for hours, but look, we will catch up again. I'm sure as you've said, you're going to see this inland rail project done in your lifetime. So, it'll be good to check in with you again uh and see where this goes from here. But look, thanks so much for giving us an update on um on not just inland rail,
but yeah, your recollections on the many dealings with prime ministers over the years. Well, if we go to schedule, uh I'll be 101 years old when this is finished. Now, I'm sure you'll still be running the ABC at that time, so we'll we'll we'll talk again. I look forward to it, Errol Copton. Thank you. All right. And we'll have more on all that's been going on this week on Insiders on Sunday morning. I hope you can join us then on ABC TV and PK will be back in the podcast feed on Monday.
Bye for now. You're making us all feel very excited about being here.
