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There's been one huge story dominating the news every day this week, and it relates to a terrible tragedy for one family. The death of 18-year-old Henry Novak, who was killed in Southampton in December. He was just on his way home from a night out. But the sentencing of his killer this week has prompted a huge and angry conversation in this country about policing, about race, and fuel has been poured on the fire in the last 24 hours with none other than the vice president of the United States, JD Vance, piling into the row. It's become a huge and fraught argument between reform, the Conservatives, the government, and the other parties. and exactly what the family of Henry did not want to happen. Let's start today with
their plea outside the court on Monday for politicians and all of us to stay calm. We need real solutions. We need investment in prevention. We need stronger action on the sale, the ownership and carrying of all knives. And as this case so painfully demonstrates, we need common sense applied to our laws. This doesn't mean knee-jerk reactions. This doesn't mean going to extremes. It just means a common sense approach to law and order. As the case see for the prosecution summed up in court, this is not a case about seekism. This is not a case about racism. This is a case about murder. Compare Mr. Novak's statement with what JD Vance posted on X yesterday. He said Henry Novak died the same way a
civilization died. Abandoned, handcuffed by the authorities who neither trusted nor cared for him, accused of hate crimes he didn't commit. He should still be alive today, and he would be if the last few generations of European elites had stood their ground against the politics of self-hatred and the mass invasion of migrants. Now, we know that Henry's killer was born and lived in the United Kingdom. We don't know if JD Vance knows that. We don't know if he would think it was relevant or indeed if politicians are just wanting to pile into this row for their own purposes. We'll talk about all of that, these sensitive issues on Saturday's edition of Newscast.
Now, Patty isn't with us this weekend, as you will have noticed. Bereft as I am, I'm pleased to say joining me on today's episode of Newscast is someone who knows an awful lot about these issues who can help us go calmly through them. Danny Shaw, hello. Well, it's nice of you to say so, Laura, but it's good to be sitting here with you on this Saturday afternoon. Well, it's very nice to have you here because this is a sensitive issue and newscasters like facts and like insight and there are very inflammatory ways of talking about this whole debate. And what we're going to try and do with the benefit of you this afternoon is to step through some of what we know and some of them what we don't know and maybe place
it in the context of these issues around policing and race that have been fraught for many years. First of all then we've got this extraordinary uh online post from JD Vance late last night. Downing street very unhappy about what he said saying that Henry Novat would still be alive if it hadn't been for a mass invasion of migrants. Um I just wonder what you made of that seeing it online pop up late last night or early this morning whenever you saw it. I mean it doesn't surprise me uh that you know senior members of the Trump administration are now winging into this after Elon Musk has had his say. Um, of course they're entitled to say what they want. They can have an opinion. Um, but
they're just kind trying to stir things up in the UK. They're trying to conflate now this tragic murder and the failings of the police and they were failings with immigration and mix those, you know, in all together and it's it's just wrong. It's dangerous and it's deeply unhelpful in my view. Let's then talk about the facts and forget about the politics for a bit. So this awful case has led to a reheat with more heat if you like over this question of two tier policing. Now the phrase to tier was actually first used in this context many years ago first of all by Tommy Robinson Steven Yaxley Len Lenon back in I think 2012 or 2014 for the first time but it really came into more common usage in the mainstream in
2024 when we saw the response to these riots after those terrible killings in Southport. But with all of your experience D is two-tier policing a real thing? not in the way that I think it is being portrayed um by you know by Tommy Robinson by Nigel Farage um by some people in the Conservative party as well. I don't believe that is a description that applies to the police service in the UK. I think there are cases and there are incidents that you can absolutely look at and say why did the police act this way? Were they scared of being accused of racism? And you talked about the grooming gang scandal and Louise Casey
in her interim review actually pointed to that fact that in some cases uh you know the police didn't act as they should have done because of those concerns. You might also point to the West Midlands Police row over McCabby Tel Aviv and say that the way that West Midlands police responded to the concerns about that football match that was going to take place at Villa Park um by effectively banning Macabby Tel Aviv from coming and that was an Israeli football team going to play a match where there were concerns about the community reacting in Birmingham. Exactly. and the West Midlands chief constable resigned ultimately over that.
Not just in what they did, but also the way he responded to that. You can say that was um an example of the police um not responding appropriately to community concerns and sort of leaning too far in their direction, you could say. So, you can find incidents, but does that characterize the nature of policing in Britain at the moment? No, I don't think it does. I mean, you know, if anything, if any group is more disadvantaged um in terms of the policing and the criminal justice system, it's black people in particular and ethnic minorities in general. And the statistics tend to support that. And you know the BBC Panorama program um on Claring Cross Police Station which came out at the end of last year and which
has led to 10 police officers being found guilty of gross misconduct shows that there are pockets of racism and anti- migrant um uh views and misogyny deeply embedded in some parts of the police service. I cannot believe that's the only police custody suite or the only police station where some of those views have taken hold. So that's if there is a problem I think that's still where it lies. So it's really important then to suggest to say as you've suggested that if you look at the big picture the overwhelming message from the statistics is that it is minorities who still get a rougher deal. That's what you're saying overall. And I'm not saying that all the racial disparities are due to discrimination. For example, black
people are four times more likely to be stopped and searched, twice as likely to be arrested than white people. And if they're convicted, their prison sentences are 10 months longer on average than white people. That's an example of disproportionality and disparity. That doesn't mean it's due to bias or discrimination. There are some socioeconomic reasons and some demographic factors that are playing into that beyond the control of policing. But there may also be some unconscious bias and some systemic discrimination as well still in the service. But it's worth just reminding ourselves of those figures when there's a complaint that a white person has got a tougher sentence than a black person or something like that. Just let us
remind ourselves of those overall figures. All this has been thrown into the harsh glare of public discussion, Danny, hasn't it? Because of this awful case around what happened to Henry Novak, where just to remind ourselves, his killer had told the police that he was the one who'd been racially abused when he made a 999 call. The police officers then arrived at the scene thinking that and didn't then respond to Henry Novak's please for help instead instead handcuffing him and arresting him as he lay bleeding on the ground. And that's really why all these issues have come up and prompted this conversation of whether or not the police have been paying too much attention to the possibility of being
accused of racism or being racist in how they're going about their business. And at that po at this point we don't know what was going through those police officers mind and that will be investigated. But the issue is absolutely up there in headlights. And there's a long history, isn't there, of trying to deal with all these issues for the police because you go back in time. The evidence suggests very strongly there was a lot of dreadful behavior as revealed by the McFersonen report back in the late '90s. Yeah. The McFersonen report into the murder of Steven Lawrence which took place in 1993 was absolutely essential. the recommendations were um accepted I think in their entirety and they made huge changes to the way that murders were
investigated, the way that victims and witnesses were treated and then also around race and discrimination. And it's worth remembering that Steven's murder was never properly investigated by the police for about 20 years. M um there was the inquiry was infected by racism, by allegations of corruption, by incompetence on a grand scale. And we are I think you know a world away from that at the moment thankfully. And also what that murder shone a light on was the way that black people have been treated and dealt with by police as victims and suspects and as witnesses. So the McFersonen report, you know, was an attempt to correct some of that and rightly so. We then had the murder of
George Lord Floyd uh in America in 2020 when he was murdered by a white police officer, a black man murdered by a white police officer who compressed his neck for almost 9 minutes. Mhm. And it was filmed and it was shocking and that, you know, created an outpouring of uh anger and upset in this country as well about the continuing poor treatment of black people at the hands of law enforcement. And that led to the police race action plan, which is I think where we now are because that's the controversial bit I think that people are saying that it's gone too far. And that directly came out of what happened to George Floyd in the US?
Yes. And do you think it was right that came out of what happened to George Floyd in the US? Because it's an interesting thing. I mean, that was a worldwide storm. You know, we talked about it on newscast. People talked about it everywhere. There was an absolutely huge response to that. People will remember the images of all sorts of public figures taking the knee, British politicians taking the knee, sports stars taking the knee, statues being brought down of huge demonstrations in the slave trade. Yeah. And one of the accusations actually made by reform is that protests around that were policed more leniently than the later Southport riot pro riots for example. But it's really interesting that the change to policy here in this country
came out of those as a direct response to what happened to George Floyd. Do you think that was right? Well, I do think it was right that there had to be um a revision of policy because I think things had stalled in terms of the treatment of ethnic minorities and black people in policing and the justice system more broadly and there needed to be some sort of rocket boosters put onto that. But my concern about what's developed since then is you have this gobbledegook of policy Yeah. and procedures and guidelines. And can I just quote from do I mean it's a complete word salad. So from one of them so this is the anti-racism commitment that came out of the police race action plan that was published last year by the national
police chief's council. It says, and I quote, "Commmit to racial equity means producing equality of policing outcomes for people from different ethnic groups by responding to individuals and communities according to their specific needs, circumstances, and experiences with understanding these will be racialized and with the aim of reducing harm. It does not mean treating everyone the same or being colorblind brackets racial equality." End quote. Now, I can't understand what that means or what it's trying to get at. I can't begin to think how a young police constable, and most of them are in their 20s or 30s um at the moment, trying to apply those that commitment on the
streets in a fastmoving situation. How are they meant to navigate that with that in their heads as long plus everything else that's going on and all the other guidance? I mean, it's dreadful. I think what it's trying to say and what it should be getting at is we're all different. We all, you know, bring to a situation different life experiences. Some of it uh is born of racism and some of it may be born of vulnerability. We may have mental health problems. We, you know, we've all got different experiences and we respond and react in different ways and we deal with different situations differently. So, use your common sense. That's really, I think, what it's trying to say or should be saying, but it's dressed up in this
language. And I can understand now why police officers a are confused and b they might overcorrect. Yeah. And you know, and deal with um allegations of racism or race hate um in a way that's perhaps, you know, over the top. And it's interesting, our colleague Simo spends a lot of time covering these issues. She's been talking to police officers, many of them, privately in the last few days because people don't necessarily want to talk publicly about these difficult issues. And I just want to read one of them's quote to Semail and she's written a really interesting piece on the website. She said, "We've had several reports about this is a police officer talking to her.
She's quoting, "We have several reports about how racist we are in the last few years when it comes to black people and Asian people. So, we're very cautious when handling cases involving different races. And so what happened in Southampton, it's easy to see why. Maybe we are too cautious. Now I think for some police officers that's probably very true. I think for others um they will respond more differently perhaps and they've got more confidence. But I know um back in 2020 I did a Radio 4 documentary looking at racism in the police. And one of the things that's very striking is, and I think it's probably still the case, that black officers, black members of police staff, and ethnic minorities broadly are over represented in the
police misconduct system compared to their white counterparts. And one of the reasons that put forward for that, there have been all sorts of reports to try and understand why is because when um a black ethnic minority officer is accused of, you know, perhaps some minor dis misdemeanor or some minor misconduct, rather than deal with it informally, their managers and superiors are so scared of, you know, of the repercussions of that they say, "Right, well, play everything by the book. So they escalate it into a misconduct process rather than you know come in and have a chat. This was not the way to behave. This was not the way to respond to that situation, you know, etc. and let's deal with it. So
everything becomes a formal process and that's one of the reasons and that shows me that there is still certainly was then an anxiety about um dealing with race issues, a fear of being accused of racism and generally a um a lack of confidence when dealing with black officers who are accused of misconduct. And one of the interesting things, Danny, about this week is that reform has expanded the argument they're making not just to be about two-tier policing, as they call it. And it's worth noting the shadow home secretary, Chris Phelp, who used to be the police minister, also says that two-tier policing is real. But reform has expanded it using the Novak case to make a broader argument that actually suggests that white people in general
are now losing out to ethnic minorities. And this is exactly what Nigel Farage has said about this. He said, and I quote, "We're living in a two-tier culture in this country where the rights and privileges of white people matter less than those of ethnic minorities." And that's a very dramatic claim to make. But it's interesting, Danny, this has become so hot politically and reform are using this to tap into what they know is a sentiment among some of their base, which you hear now, you hear it back from focus groups or if you hear it if you're out and about talking to some voters and a belief that uh white communities have been somehow ignored because of political correctness. or if
you look at the education statistics around white boys in school partic particularly they're trying to tie it into this bigger conversation. Um but from what you're saying when it comes to policing much of this may be the law of unintended consequences efforts to correct a historic wrong have ended up with pockets of things ending up which nobody would have wanted in the first place. Yeah, I think it's possible and that's why I think there needs to be a serious look by the inspectorative constabularary, the policing watchdog into these various training programs that have been criticized by some, the anti-racism training programs. Are they actually having the right impact, the right effect? Is it just a box ticking exercise? Is it a waste of time? Is it
leading officers to over, you know, overcorrect? Um, I think why not? Let's have that look, you know, and it may be that broadly it's in the right place, but it needs some tweaking or it may be actually it's, you know, it's not in the right place. But, you know, I think we should have the confidence to be able to do that. I don't think that means necessarily that what happened to Henry Novak is a direct result of that. But clearly there is concern around these issues and so why not let's let's examine it. So, there are going to be various different reviews already. We know that the police chiefs are reviewing that guidance. The government has said some of the language is wrong. There will of
course be this review into what happened to Henry Novak. The police uh watchdog is looking at exactly went what went wrong there. We know the conservatives are then calling for a separate independent rapid review to use the terminology. That would be something a bit with a bit more meat. I mean my view is that you know the independent office for police conduct is the right body at the moment to look at the officer's actions and whether what they did was in accordance with their training and requirements and expectations and looking at all the circumstances and everything that they knew about that situation. There's also going to be an inquest into the death of Henry which will be a broader inquest which will
also encompass some of those issues. I don't at the moment believe there's a need for another inquiry. I think those two things um are enough. Um and you know, as a result of the IOPC investigation, it may be that there are misconduct proceedings. It may even be that there's criminal proceedings. At the moment, the officers involved are being treated as witnesses, so they're not under formal investigation, but that can change. I'm not saying it will, but it can. So, I think that's enough. I don't think we need another formal inquiry. And just lastly, the family and I've been talking to representatives of the family who have been very clear they did not want this to blow up into an angry political row
and that is what has happened. But what they do want is a specific change in the law around seek ceremonial knives. So, as things stand, and you'll be more familiar with this than I am, but as things stand, I'm told section 47 of the 2019 uh piece of legislation exempts ceremonial knives from being classed as offensive weapons. The family want that to be changed so that large ceremonial knives would be covered by that legislation. Can you see that happening? I mean, should we actually in this conversation be talking about the prevalence of knife crime rather than the racial elements that have been raised by politicians?
Yeah, Henry Novak was murdered um by a man who was carrying a knife um and it, you know, he was a victim of knife crime and I do think that's actually what we should be discussing. Um, and I do think that there needs to be a review of that of that legislation. And it does seem to me that it's wrong that people should be allowed to carry those weapons. Um, you know, I understand there are religious sensitivities. I get that. But that doesn't mean that we have to bow to every single um tenate of religion in my view. and particularly when it comes to those longer blades and um he was um Vicram Digle was carrying I think an 8 in blade which was the longer knife uh which he was allowed to carry.
So I absolutely would support that and for the government to redouble its efforts on tackling knife crime. I think it's made some good progress and it's doing some good work on that already. And it's interesting there was a very what I thought was a very powerful letter from the seek MPs in parliament. All of the seeks in parliament published this joint letter yesterday saying this is not about religion. This is basically about a young man who has been murdered. And they indicated a willingness to, you know, there is a debate about whether or not people could be allowed to carry the much smaller ceremonial knives. Yes. The need for a large there's a debate even about whether or not the size of knife like that could be regarded as
well. Well, you could kill someone with a small knife as well. I mean, obviously this is a this is very rare. Okay. I don't know if there have been other cases in which um a sick person has used their then their kurpan to stab someone or kill someone. It may be that it's it's very rare. Um but nevertheless, I think it should be reviewed. Danny, thank you very much indeed for coming in. It's been really good to talk about these sensitive issues in a really calm way and with the benefit of your many years of experience. Thank you. Thanks, Laura.
