Louis Theroux Returns to the Westboro Baptist Church Years Later

You should have listened to my words. Look at all these people coming out to see us. They're coming out. They think they're coming out to rage and rant. What they're coming out to do is to get bound to the standards. Does your bandanna say thank God for cancer? Every time a woman dies of breast cancer or a man, you know, men get it, too. You call that a god smack. You see, things are different today than they were when you were here 4 years ago, aren't they?

Is it possible you've become even more weird? And we've become more determined. The Westborough Baptist Church is a fire and brimstone Christian group adamantly opposed to homosexuality. It's this nation of these fats. It's the nation of [__] That's what fagg mean. And spreading their message of God's hate by picketing soldiers funerals. You're going to eat your babies. And any preacher preaching it any other way is a lying hellbound false prophet. In 2006, I made a documentary attempting to understand their motivations.

You're supposed to rejoice over all of God's judgments. And do you rejoice when soldiers uh die in Iraq? Absolutely I do. You rejoice when people are knocked over by cars and they get cancelled. Absolutely. I love it. And I can tell you right now because it's the righteous judgment of God online. Four years on and there had been a number of high-profile defections and their set of beliefs were becoming ever more bizarre.

There's your goddess, your worthless flag. Our soldiers are still dying. There were signs the group might be unraveling. Hoping to discover the truth, I decided to make a return visit to America's most hated family. Though the head of the church is its pastor, Fred Phelps Senior, the day-to-day running of the ministry and much of the decision-making is left to his daughter, Shirley.

Hello. Can we come in? Yes, come Thank you. So, should we look at the signs? Yes. The new sign. As on my first visit, I broke the ice with the infamous plaqueards. See, first of all, because we got lots of little people, so we made all these cute little miniatures. Mini signs. Mini signs for many hands. They're so cute. And um do the um are the mini signs also slightly uh less lurid than some of the other signs? Is fear God lurid? No, I mean not really. I mean the stick men having anal sex and things like that. No, I don't think there are any of those, but there is these cute little ones because we have our Jewish friends.

There's some cute little See, like that. Is that cute? The doctrine is the same now. Correct. Yes. Only we're down the timeline. But don't you always say that? It's always I mean it's Jesus is always round the corner, isn't he? And that's been the case for 2,000 years. Well, there's just one little difference. You've got the Antichrist sitting in the most powerful office in the whole world. Whose brain wave was it that Obama was the Antichrist? That is such a good question. You're going to love this. It was a whole bunch of us looking and like I'm thinking this guy's got to be the Antichrist. He fits all the descriptors. So then I was I

think I was talking to Marge and it was there was no question that there a lot of us were thinking it. A lot of us. So what else has changed since I was here? Well, except for the fact that we run faster, we're way clearer, um we're smaller, we which is job security for all the rest of us that are here, every rebel that goes takes away a heavy burden. A lot of people leaving. We have had a lot of that. It's like freaking exodus out of here. It's like, but it's really good. So, if you've got a rebel who wants to do this and that, then they're always dragging their ass.

So, you get rid of one of those and it's a lighter. you're unburdened. The Phelps are notorious for their pickets of funerals, especially those of soldiers killed in action. But they also do a daily roster of local pickets of places of worship and other symbolic locations. I joined some of the younger members outside a Catholic church. Is it Noah? How you doing? Good. Do you remember me from the BBC? Yeah. How old are you now? 11. Anything changed since I last saw you?

Same old, same old. You lost a few members of the church since I was here. Yeah. More than a few. Who did you lose? K. Um, K. Hawking. K. Hawken. Katherine. Katherine Hawkenburgger. Libby. Um, Libby Lauren. Yeah. Probably a few more. Were you sorry to see them go? No. If they're not going to be one of God's elect, then if they're not one of God's elect, they're going to leave this place.

Okay. Um the Lord, this is Zion. Do you ever worry that you might go? Yes. Do you? Why? Well, cuz you don't want to be kind. Your heart is always evil. I mean, it's generally evil. So, there's always a fight between the flesh and the spirit, and you're hoping that you won't leave. So, well, it depends. If the Lord loves you, he'll give you grace. You feel you're being pulled in the wrong direction by your thoughts. What do you do? You get out of there. You stop thinking about that. You put that away. Put that What do you struggle with most?

Uh, somewhat talking and putting my thoughts in captivity. That's that's a big one. I talk way too much. And you, Gabriel? Pride of the heart. Why? because it lifts you up and then God will take you down. One of those most closely affected by the defections was Steve Drain, whose daughter Lauren had left the church not long after my first visit. Like me, Steve had once been a filmmaker, but in the course of making his documentary about the Phelps, he'd been converted.

Louie. Hi, Steve. How are you doing, my old friend? Good to see you. Come on in. Thanks for having me. Come on in. Come You want to see something? Sure. He now specialized in producing some of the church's online videos and provocative media. Oh yeah. Oh wow. Look at that. What do you think? Is that going to be a real sign? I think so. If you want it to be. I mean, I designed it last night. I have the file. We all we have to do is print it. The reason why I thought I'd make that sign is because you know um as much

of a nice guy as you are. You know that you're one of the chief workers of iniquity in the whole history of man. You know I mean you're up there with Pontius Pilot and Pharaoh. Are you being serious? Oh yeah. How am I up there with Pontious Pilot? He had considerable power and a considerable platform to do things other otherwise. And he did things the way that he did them. Just like you, you have considerable power. You could turn to the camera right now and you could say, "You know what? I've done my research on these guys and what they preach is true in the Bible.

It says it in the Bible and I fear God as well." And so what I think you guys should all do is listen to Fred Phelps in the Westboro Baptist Church. But instead, what you do is you kind of pick at us and you kind of in a humanistic way kind of, you know, make us look kind of clownish and buffoonish and that kind of stuff, but it's good for ratings. So, welcome back. Glad to be back. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to show you the Jew thing. That's rock. That's rocking. Is your doom is coming. God's promises are sure. Noel, he soon is maring. Makes us so happy.

His covenant endur the battle will rage hot. The land will spew you out with joy we shout. OUR WORDS ON this day. God won't hear what you say when you bow down to the beast. The one you worship has no mercy. Be glad he's undone. Even for you and the Westboro Baptist Church, that was surprisingly offensive. Well, offensive in what way? Do we infer from the swastika that you are basically pro-Nazi at this point? No, what we can you what you can infer from the swastika is that was one of the ways that the Lord kicked your ass for your disobedience. And when the nations march on Israel at on the final days, the Holocaust will seem like a tea party

by comparison. That's what that's for. And you'll be rejoicing about that. Of course I will. When the Lord afflicts somebody with a thing, he's decided that's going to happen. What are you going to do? You're going to complain against God. Yes. Why? Well, because that's a human reaction. No, it's a rebel reaction. So, since I was lost here Mhm. you lost a member of the family. I did. Well, I didn't. And I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah. Lauren left. Yes. Why are you sorry to hear that? Because um I'm sorry for her. because I know she's upset and I've spoken to her and I'm sorry for you because she was

your daughter is your daughter and I know that you were very fond of her. Once somebody comes to yours and they decide that they would rather enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season rather than suffer afflictions with the people of God, we say bye. Would I be correct in thinking you've now removed any photos that you have of Lauren? Well, the ones that we had up. Yeah. So, you've kind of expuned uh most of the pieces of evidence, the evidence that she was ever even part of this family. No, I've got a mind. You've chucked out the um the photos. We have albums of photos. They're just not on the wall. It's such a petty thing that you're hanging this on. And Lou, look at this. She left. She left out of here. I didn't chuck her into Connecticut.

She said she didn't get a chance to represent her point of view at a church meeting. Lauren got good words by everybody in this place for a long time. She was prone to those sins for a long time. She got talked to by a lot of good people. Which sins you talking about there? Well, I'll tell you what sin. Fornication for one. She wanted a man. And she didn't want a man according to the scripture. She didn't want to be evenly yolked with somebody. She wanted a man. She was in the most blessed place on earth

in these last dark days. She rejected every one of that counsel. She her feet ran to sin whenever she had a chance. And all we were doing was hemming her into obedience. She didn't have a heart to serve her God. And so at the end of the day, we know that the only remedy and the only hope for her at that point is handing her over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. You expect me to believe that it was in no way upsetting or difficult? I was actually so relieved at the point that I said and I was the first one of the meeting to say uh she's got to go. What about you, Lucy? Did you find I understand you were crying when she came to get her things.

I knew you were going to ask that question, Louie. I was crying because what he's saying right there because I knew what was in store for her soul of what choice she was making there. What was the hardest part for you? The hardest part? Mhm. Um, I'm saying goodbye to your daughter. I don't think there I don't Um, you're not going to say it was easy. Probably just the logistics of what do we need to do so that we are taking care of her. She is our daughter. We're not going to send her out there on her own. So, we made sure she had transportation.

She already had a full-time job as an RN. We found a place for her to be. Three nights at a hotel was also included. You know, we were willing to pay as long as we needed to. She found her own place. Pretty generous. And Louis, you know what? You're such a jack weasel. You know that you really are. There's not a genuine bone in your body. All you want to do is pick it the c the saints of God through a humanistic standard. And that's fine. We welcome that.

I'm a jack weasel because I don't agree with you. No, you're a jack weel because what you do is you come here with your humanistic standard. You ask to apply it to us when you know it doesn't apply to us, the servants of the most high God. Because at the end of the day, what we're talking about is scriptural processes for doing things. It's sad that a daughter no longer has her parents and siblings and it's sad that parents no longer have that's your perspective and maybe a lot of your that we don't talk to our parents because our parents are rebellious. Do you understand that we have no communication with them and we're not sad about it.

We are not sad about it because they teach rebellion. That whole situation to date with Lauren happened for his glory to magnify his name. Why are you back here, Louie? Why are you back here? Exactly. Look, we're back here to pick at us because these children left the church of the Lord Jesus Christ because they're rebellious. That's why you're back here and it's going to glorify God. Every time you do a documentary film about the Westboro Baptist Church, you're going to see you're going to show those signs, aren't you, Louie?

Thank God for the BBC. Thank God for Louis Thorough. And thank God that Lauren left this house. Hello. How do you do? I'm Louie. Hi, Lou. I'm Lauren. Lauren, nice to meet you. Taylor. On my first filming trip, I'd spent a couple of hours with Lauren and her sister Taylor. At that time, she'd only been in the church a few years, and I'd been struck by her commitment to the Phelps doctrine. If Taylor or Lauren decided to have a boyfriend, for example, how would that work? Well, it wouldn't work. There are no boyfriends.

It's not like you just decide, "Oh, I'm just going to go be perverted now. What's going to happen, Dad?" We know exactly what's going to happen. Our dad's going to say, "Get the heck out if you're going to sin against God." You know what the standards are in this house. Why is that perverted? Of course, it's perverted to have a boyfriend. There's a standard, one man, one woman for life. And that is the marriage bed. That is the marriage. That's it. She'd left in 2007 and now lived 1300 miles from Topeka in Connecticut. She still worked as a nurse, but she was no longer a part of the Westborough Baptist Church.

Hello. Hi, Lauren. How are you? Nice to see you. Nice to see you again. Thanks for having us. Yes. Can I come in? Yes, you may. You want something to drink? Sure. That would be great. This is your place? Yes. I bought it in July of last year. So, 4 years more then? Well, actually, it was when I was 21. I'm 24 now. So I'll be 25 in December. So almost. Yeah. You look quite different, too.

Do I? Probably. Yeah. This is kind of like a collage of me and my little sister, my mom and dad when I was younger. Okay, here's a good one. That's a family photo a long time ago. Your dad has an earring in that one. Yeah. Earring and long hair. Like I don't know. He was like in a rock band back then. Was he? Yeah. Was he pretty liberal? Yeah. Yeah, he was liberal. Like I don't know. He had a lot of interesting friends.

What had your dad been doing for a living when you were growing up? He was still in school a lot of the time when I was growing up. He was still like I mean he did different majors. He was a professor and um of like philosophy, western civilization. Um he did um film. He has so much potential. like he's good at so many things. He's so well-rounded, but he just chose to get caught up in this crazy um church that's where he's manifesting his ego is there and in this place where he can feel like he's right and everyone else is wrong. And it's got to be a very powerful feeling and he has power over his family cuz he can, you know, it's a very all or nothing situation. Either your kids are

doing exactly what you tell them to do or they're not there. How did you come to be here? There was a guy in the picture, wasn't there? There was someone you'd been corresponding with online. I don't know. I guess I didn't think that I my parents were literally going to throw me out, banish me, and never talk to me again. So, I didn't really um like I guess you say like completely shut him down. Then what happened? Um, then one day I came home from work and I was told I was there was a meeting held that I was kicked out and that I couldn't live in my house, my parents house anywhere. Who told you that?

My dad. Do you think in a way it's because they're capable of being so cold to members of their own family that makes them feel more okay about being cold and horrible to other people's families who are berieved, the people at the funerals, because they feel, well, we're holding everyone to an extremely high standard. I'm sure it is. I'm sure it gives them lots of leverage to say, "Well, you can't say we wouldn't treat our own people this way, cuz we do, and here's an example." I'm sure it gives them plenty of leverage to do that. Do you think you'll ever see your family again? I'd love to see them, but it's certainly possible that you won't.

Right. I've already crossed I've already come to that realization. So, some people lose their parents to cancer or car accidents or other things. I've lost my parents to a cult. One big change since my previous visit was that the Phelps pickets now attracted large counter demonstrations. No longer so focused on the funerals of dead soldiers, now like rock stars, they tooured college campuses where they were met by throngs of protesters. And will we see that fiery sight? [screaming] YOU are a widow, not a queen. Fat bottom [__] by our almighty lord go down. Town clown fat bottom by our almighty lord go down.

This appearance,200 miles from topa at North Idaho College was in honor of the staging of a play. The director was among the onlookers. What is the Laram project as people in Britain may not know. Oh, it's a play based on the murder of Matthew Shepard. Young man who is gay. Exactly. A hate crime. Yeah. How do you feel about them coming? Well, you know, you never want to bring people who are so negative and hatefilled into your community. I So, there's a I really don't want them here, but it has sparked some really good

conversations and some really healthy discussion. And so, I think that this community is turning it into a positive thing. Shut up. REBEL YOU TALK. GOD don't hear a thing. All you got is lust. No will to just obey. Oy. What? What did you say? You think God loves your praying. He hates all you do cuz you love fornic. It was not yet 9:00 a.m., but this was already the third picket of the day for the Phelps. They'd previously hit two local high schools, having started in the dark at 5:30.

These are the last hours for this nation. I was just wondering like um I just want to know your point of view about the First Amendment because it also includes the freedom. The first amendment is beautiful. Yes, we love the First Amendment. The default is hell. 99.9% of mankind is headed straight for hell and there's nothing you can do about it. Wait, wait, wait. I'm gay. You left to God. It's a very small remnant. Yeah, of course. Of course you are. You're If you don't repent, if you're engaged in some filthy conduct, you're headed straight for hell. There's nothing you can do about it.

You guys have to move back there. Okay. Thanks. Thank you. How come you HAVE A CHILD and Jesus can't forgive you but he doesn't forgive the rest of us? Did he just die for you? You mean he didn't forgive you? Forgive me for what, honey? For what? Oh, you mean you're perfect? You're s. Then why are you upset? I'm not standing over here going, "Honey, you're shaking with rage." I'm asking. No, I'm shaking because I have him s your god.

I HAVE HIM S. WELL, IF WE go this way, then they leave. Oh, I got you. thing, right? I just wanted to know. Right home. Do you have a question? Yeah. So, I mean, what I mean, what is it that How do you respond to this? Yay. How happy is that? Back in Topeka and it was Sunday, the day of the church service. As ever, the sermon would be delivered by Fred Phelps, Senior, the Peter Familas of the family and f of its doctrine. He and I had never really hit it off on my first visit. For my return, I was asked to sit near the back. Keeping me company was one other mystery visitor.

The multitude that they should ask for rabbits and destroy Jesus. So, they did. These modern Jews have the stinking smell of the criminal Barabus about their persons and they have the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ on their hands. They brag about it on the picket lines, don't they, beloved? With snarled, curled, furled back lips. AH, WE KILLED JESUS AND WE'LL KILL YOU, TOO. That's what thanks we get for preaching some truth to Jews in Brooklyn. You're cursed of God. That sounds awful doggone intolerant. Shut up. You and your intolerant boogy man. Preach a little truth to you and you're all hellbent for leather. Love you.

Amen. And went out. Any hope of a one-on-one with the pastor was soon dashed. Those guys are on the loose. Shining forth. You got to get rid of them. Okay, we will. Instead, I spoke to Jack. Can I have a quick chat with you? Uh, sure. What's your name? Jack. Jack? Yes. How do you do? I'm Louis. Hi, Louie. You're kind of infamous, right? Why did you say I'm infamous? Well, it's because they've spoken about you and now they're calling you ravens in their prayer. So, ravens?

Yeah, ravens. Unclean ravens that you're just here to be like a vessel. Are you part of the church? No. No, not a member. Do you aim to become a member? Well, I hope yes. I mean, if you're not a member of the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, then you're probably going to hell. So, as it stands, would you be going to hell at the moment? Yes. Are you obeying the words at the moment? Uh, yeah. No. Not truthfully, no. Because uh that is something that I had to work on.

Jack's interested in joining the church. Have you talked to me about that? Well, when we first met, maybe. Oh, well, you mean when you got here from San Francisco? Well, hun, if you thought that coming here right off the streets of San Francisco and landing here the next day and say, "I want to be a member." We wouldn't do that because we didn't know you, right? And we have that scripture that says, "Lay hands on no man suddenly." We would have to see the fruit of your doing. Yes. Exactly. And I don't know if I've shown that. So that's that's something I had to work on.

[screaming] After the service, I'd been invited to a display by the younger Phelps women. I'm supposed to sit here. Yes, you are. Sit. I'd been surprised to hear them describe themselves as the saucy seven. So pretty. It was one of the latest examples of their practice of parodying topical pop songs, replacing the lyrics with abuse on a biblical theme. There seemed to be two urges at work. One to spread the message in the provocative Phelps style. Another simply to provide a hobby and an outlet for the younger members. not you anymore. You got the boys and the girls to be proud.

You This is my room. On my previous visit, I'd spent time with Jail Phelps. There's pictures everywhere. Has it ever been a time when you felt um tempted? I don't want to talk about that. I don't think it's appropriate. I'm not going to dwell on anything inappropriate if I can possibly help it. I'll take that as a yes. I'm not going to answer that question. I'm a dumb young girl, but I'm not that dumb and goofy to go.

It's so silly. I'm I'm not going to talk. I don't want to talk about it anymore. Okay. I thought I'd seen a conflict in her, but four years on, she was still in the church. I was curious to speak to her again. This is our new house. This is my room. We moved in here um the year that I graduated from college in ' 07. And so I got to design it myself and I had help from my friends to paint it. And it's really awesome. I think What do these pictures actually show? You had these awesome tsunamis. We just had one the other day called Maggie, which is very cute because we have our little Megan.

Are you kind of rejoicing in these calamities? Definitely. Yeah. Why? Um because they're the judgments of God and we're supposed to rejoice in all of his judgments. And all the people who die in calamities like a tsunami or something like that. They're deserving of death in your view. All um human beings deserve death um because they're born sinners. Wow. So this is four years on from when I last saw you. Has anything changed with you? A whole lot of things have changed. A whole lot of things have happened to us. You've also lost quite a few people along the way, haven't you? Right. Including one of your best friends. That's right. Who would that be? It was Lauren. Is that who you're talking about?

Yeah. And you were a nurse with her? Yes. She worked with me at first. We had the same job. Were you sad to see your friend go? She wasn't my friend. Well, she had been until that point. She had, but you see the about face that she did and everything that I thought she was. She wasn't that person. Yeah. It can't be easy to reset your whole thinking about a person overnight. She was a liar, hun. And so I didn't know her. The person all a sudden crops up. I don't know that person.

Do you worry that it could be you? Anybody that has any right thinking, it says take heed that you don't think that you stand lest you fall. Because if you think you get your chest puffed up, I'm serving God. I'm all that and whatever. Your ass is out of here. Pride has no place in serving God. There's no pride. WE CAN'T HEAR YOU. One of the biggest developments with the Phelps was a court case that had been brought against them by the father of a young soldier whose funeral the family had picketed in 2006. The Supreme Court heard an emotionally charged case that could redefine the First Amendment right of free speech.

There is a civilized way to express an opinion in America, but it does not involve intentionally inflicting emotional distress on others. Albert Snder had won $13 million from the Phelps. The decision was overturned on appeal and was now before the Supreme Court. The Phelps elders, many of whom are lawyers, had made a high-profile trip to Washington. Reporters asked whether the Phelps family ever considered the Snider family's feelings. crying about your FOR YOUR SIN. NO SHAME.

YOU'RE GOING straight to hell on your crazy train. That's our answer about feelings. Stop worshiping your feelings and start obeying God. But the national exposure seemed to have spurred a sense of urgency in the church and fed into a concrete timetable for the second coming. I wondered about the younger members and so I'd arranged to spend time with a couple of Shirley's children. First up, 11-year-old Noah. Can I come in? How are you doing? I'm good. Do you feel you understand the message a little bit better now? Yes. And do you understand that um gay people, homosexuals find the word [__] offensive?

I really don't care. It's a good way to put it. Gay actually means happy. And so it's way better than that. And you can put all those big words homosexual. They're just a bunch of filthy [__] I don't care if they find it offensive. It's wrong. The Bible says it's wrong. So, you can just shut up about that. Did you just tell me to shut up? Okay. Sorry. I'm just saying you can Okay. Sorry. One of the things I've been learning since I was back is that um we're actually quite close to the end of the whole process of the world in a sense and that Jesus

might be coming back. Do you know anything about that? Yes. Would you like to explain that? Which part? Uh well, where are we at? Where we're where the part with the beast? With the He's already ascended and there are things that are happening. And who is the beast? Well, Antichrist Obama possibly. Um there's a lot of we see all these last things happening and it says there's going to be a beast and he's getting all sorts of popularity. He's fitting all the roles that it talks about and it just it's working perfectly. So, we have all reason to believe he's the beast. And so what will happen next? Do you know what do you expect?

My aunt Pette, she had a dream and she imagined this all in pink all of our people in a pink cave and far away from our from the place we are now. Nothing like it. And so guess what? We looked up on the internet and we're looking for things. Someone looked for that and you know what we found? Somewhere in the fertile crescent in Jordan, which used to be Moab, there are pink caves that are big and it would That's just kind of Isn't that kind of cool?

You could end up in a pink cave in Jordan, I guess. So, I'm just saying that's what happened. Isn't that kind of cool, though? Yeah. I just want to tell you that. That's cool. Next door to Noah was the room of Shirley's youngest daughter. Can we come in? Uh-huh. So, tell me a little bit about you. Well, I'm Grace. I'm 18 years old. What else? We got three chaperones today.

Why not? She's one of our third little maidens, and we um we guard our little fair maidens. You were probably not much older than Grace when we interviewed you last time. Here's the thing. Grace asked because she knows you. She knows that. and she recognizes that you would, if you could, entra us in our words. I'm sorry. You just make me a little nervous. Okay. Um, basically, I don't believe what you're doing is right. I view it as deeply wrong and offensive, and I don't believe that the Bible is the word of God.

Um, so you understand that I'm coming at it from a completely different point of view than you are, right? You get that, right? But did you like that? because that was me sort of going on record as I feel like I've got this reputation for being uh snakeike and insidious and I feel like actually I've come here with a um a fairly clear and open agenda and my agenda is to try and understand on a human level what has motivated the people in this church to engage in the behaviors that they have done. So tell me about you. What do you like doing? Well, obviously, um, I like running and I like weightlifting and I like painting and I like ceramics. And you like photography. And you got some photographs in here. Is that right?

Correct. Will you show us those? Sure. This one's of my cousin. And then this is my niece Mariah. This is an adorable little Muslim boy. We were um picketing at the funeral of a Muslim in town and we were a couple blocks away and I walked down with my camera just cuz I wanted to get some pictures and I got that one. You know, um that's kind of striking because um the way you were saying you were picking the funeral of a Muslim and then you found an adorable boy a couple of blocks away who was Muslim. Do you see any contradiction there?

I didn't set the bounds of his habitation. I can't change that. And saying that it's a cute picture doesn't change that. Tell them about the circumstances of it too because we had burned the Quran. Oh yeah. And the guy that was out there blasting us for doing the right thing, burning the Quran, showing its proper respect that it deserves cuz it's idolatrous piece of trash. Um his wife died the next week and we pick it at her funeral and that's the event that Grace took this picture at. Wow. There were so many things there that were offensive. It was amazing.

Do you know how much trouble you can get into for speaking disrespectfully of the Quran. Do you have any idea what kind of God that backs us and that is the God of the Bible? What? He's a terrible and jealous and vengeful God. All those angry little Muslims can just shut their mouths. And you're saying his wife died because he denounced the West Baptist Church in part. Yes. in part. Yes, that's the judgment of God falling on his head. He ought not to have ever opened his mouth and he ought to have been burning the Quran with us. That's the righteous judgment of God. And you can dispute that, but you're on the wrong side of that. So, what would you say the next few years look like for you, Grace?

Well, if the Lord carries, I'm going to have this. I'm going to graduate in December. You said if the Lord tries, right? if he delays in what respect? Well, we're expecting that the Supreme Court's going to rule in our favor because they know it's the right thing because we have a First Amendment in this country. And the people aren't going to they aren't going to stand it. They're going to be angry and they're going to demand that we leave. the country. Really? Yes. And um and where will you go?

What we're expecting, again, the word expecting is to Jerusalem. That'll be interesting. Yeah. Then what happens? Grace, tell them what happens next. We're in the wilderness. We're in Jerusalem, wherever we are. Then what happens? The 144,000 Jews who are going to have a heart to know their God. God, who's going to repent for killing their savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. We're going to be helping them. And then we're expecting soon after that is the Lord's going to come. You really do believe that? Yes, of course we do. You were here four years ago. Now you're here again.

You think that we really don't believe what we say we believe? That's the timeline. This is the gym. Yeah. Right. Should we say hello to your mom? There was another woman I'd filmed who was no longer in the church. Libby Phelps, Shirley's niece, the daughter of Fred Junior, and his wife Betty. Betty, are you just going to stay on the sidelines? Yes. I'm just going to watch. Um Libbyy's what, 23 years old. So people would most people would say, "Well, that's old enough to be able to handle yourself or, you know, be

unaccompanied. What's your perspective on that?" I'm sure she could handle herself just fine. I just didn't have anything else to do this morning right now. In five years, where will you be? I don't know what's going to happen in 5 years. And I hope the Lord comes before 5 years gets here. But I hope that if we're still here on this earth in 5 years, I hope that I'm still here. Where? Yes. That's the Wester Baptist Church. Why do you hope you're still here? Because I don't want to go to hell. But maybe you wouldn't go to hell. Where the fire that eats where the worm that eats on you never dies and the fire

is never quenched. That's scary stuff. Four years on and Libby was still living in Kansas, working as a physiootherapist, but no longer part of the church. I visited her at home. Hello. Hey. Hi, Louis. How you doing? Great. You look great. Thanks. And this is a lovely place. Thanks. Thanks for having us. No problem. So, why did you leave? What happened that really caused me to leave was me and my family went to Puerto Rico. And when we got back, we had a picture of me and my sister wearing Sarah.

Yeah. My sister Sarah. Yes. We were wearing a bikini in a shot. And my family saw the picture and they thought that we shouldn't be wearing bikinis. So they called both of us up and were telling us it's inappropriate to wear that. It's the four Bs. You're not supposed to show your boobs, your belly, your back, or your butt. That's a rule. So, um, when my cousin Megan came up to me and asked me about it, I told her that she wore bikinis before and, um, then all hell broke loose pretty much because of the way that I reacted cuz I stood up for myself and didn't think it was right that I was pretty much kind of picked on for wearing it. Were they telling you that you had to shape up or were they telling you this is why you're being expelled?

Well, they were pretty much telling me to shape up. They didn't say I was going to be expelled or anything, but they um yeah, they kept calling me at work and I was trying to work and so I was like [clears throat] down in the basement like crying all the time. At work. They're calling you to say what? Well, I didn't answer the phone until my grandpa called and he [clears throat] was the last person that I talked to and I wasn't thinking about leaving and he said, "You're not going to leave, are you?" And I said, "No." And then like 30 minutes later, I just had this really strong feeling like I got to get out of here. [snorts] Right before I left, my mom sent me a text message that said, "Are you having a good day?

And that [snorts] was the last thing I saw and then I moved out. You get upset thinking about um your family and that you're separated from them. Is that it? Or is it the sense of unfairness that you feel? the separation from my family because we had a really tight family bond and I miss my mom and dad. [snorts] Do you still worry that you might be going to hell? Sometimes. Yes. Why? because of what my family how my family raised me. And when everybody else left, they said that we were going to go to the hottest part of hell. Who said that? Who's going to the hottest part of hell?

The people who have left. A little later, I went to see Libbyy's parents, Fred, Junior, and Betty. Andre. Hello. Hi, Fred. How's it going? How are you doing? I'm I'm good. Hi, Betty. Hello. How are you? I'm good. Did you see my dog? No. She Somebody tried to cut her head off. Oh my goodness. You didn't hear about that? Why would they have tried to do that? It's a mystery. Uh, we hadn't been here very long. We just moved in and we have a privacy fence. So, do you think it's related to your ministry? Well, most people were very

angry about it, but every so often somebody will drive by and say they wish she was dead. Is that sick or what? Since we saw you four years ago, Libbyy's gone. So, I just was curious to talk to you about what happened and how that felt. I hear she contacted you. Yes, that's true. What'd she say? Uh, she just said that she'd left the church and she was living out in the world and um Well, we live in the world. Well, but you're not earth dwellers. Okay. Why did she leave? That's a good question. She didn't tell me. She didn't? Do you know why?

Did she tell you, Betty? Do you have any inkling why she left? Um, I believe that uh she determined that she was of the world as opposed to wanting to submit to the church. Somebody told me she was carousing around after she left. I don't know. What can you tell me? You should get in touch with her. Well, she didn't leave any forwarding address or number or anything. I imagine that if you sincerely wanted to get in touch with her, you would be able to find a way of doing it. That's probably true. Yeah, that's Would you like to see Libby?

Um, not necessarily. I mean, I don't know what see her for I guess if there was any uh talk on her part of repentance or anything like that perhaps then. But, uh, you know, she's got her own thing going. It's quite normal for parents and children not to see completely eye to eye but still to find a way of getting along being together on holiday seeing each other. The savior said that there was this was going to be happening that children against their parents the enemies in your own house.

Do you see her as an enemy in a sense? Well, I don't see her as a friend. I don't see her as an ally. Why not at least acknowledge that it was in some ways emotional or difficult? Well, I mean, I'm a human being, so obviously uh it was not something that you want to go through every day. Let's put it that way. Is it upsetting when it happens? Well, you know, everybody has their own level, you know, upset. Clearly, there were moments where I'm not sure that's the right word.

Disappointment probably would be a better word. What about you, Betty? Was it pretty much the same as what he said? Was it easy? No. The thing that confuses me is that Well, you're not confused. You know what's happening. Well, to me as an outsider that seems very strange and a little bit inhuman, if I may. Well, that's that's because you don't believe the Bible. And if you want to talk about inhumity, u you know, I've spent the last 20 years working in corrections. I know what

inhumity is. This is not inhumane. this is what she needs and this is what our obligation is. Our concern is towards the elect. You feel she's not among the elect. She's not part of the church. But don't you still owe her a duty of care, some level of uh concern as parents? No, there's no I've I've discussed with you our obligation. And you feel the same way, Betty? Yes. You don't need to check in with her just to make sure as parents that she's okay.

Right. Why? I said, "Right." I said, "Why It was odd seeing people so obviously distraught by the turn events had taken and yet so incapable or afraid of expressing their feelings. I couldn't help feeling sorry for Fred and Betty and wondering at the strange exile they imposed on their daughter and on themselves. Hi Charlie. Hi Lou. The younger members were if anything even more constrained, unable to be friends with anyone not part of the family and therefore with no prospect of marriage. But for them there was a small loophole.

They could have contact with outsiders in the form of the journalists who would come and visit. I'd heard some of the girls talking about a young film crew from Holland. Gifts had been exchanged and they'd kept in touch. Did you see that sign across that way? During my conversation in Grace's bedroom with Megan and Jail, more details had emerged. Who are your Dutch friends? Okay, we had there was a Dutch uh film crew that came. It was actually part of a student project. And so we've we've kept up with them. We see, you know, on Twitter. We talk to them on Twitter sometimes and they ask, you know, they

have a lot of questions. And see, that's the thing when we interact with people on these levels, they know who we are and they know how we live our lives. And the fact that they see that we can live in this earth and do all the things that they do. I mean, not all the things, but a lot of the same things that they do and still have this public testimony. It's a testimony against them. That's what it is. Against them. I thought I was following you up to the very end and then it suddenly I lost it because they see that it's possible to live in this earth and live sober, righteous, and godly.

But isn't that a little, if you'll forgive me, isn't that a little two-faced? If you sort of are saying you enjoy corresponding with them and chatting to them and exchanging gifts, but at some level it's all a way of proving how inferior they are. No. But what it is it does in the end it testifies against them if they continue to reject it. It's worse for them than for people who've never seen these things. And me and Grace, see, they left us a little flip video camera for us to shoot some footage of ourselves, you know, to talk, you know, and leave them messages or whatever before they left. And the last thing we did was [clears throat] we wrote this thing. We tried to say it ourselves, but we were crying. So me and

Grace couldn't say it. We had to give it to my mom for her to say it. Why were you crying? Because we It's a sorrowful thing. Yeah, exactly. We know because we spent a week with these people. We know who they are. We interacted with them. We were uh You enjoyed their company enough to harbor a hope that maybe they might be receptive. Me did not make any accommodations for the flesh. Yep. Is it Would you like the Gestapo now? how you like interject your role is interject the doctrinal hard line at key moments when people are showing vulnerability.

I like to curtsy to that. Can I tell you what I see? I see someone who's who's having their cake and eating it. You know, someone who's who's towing the line verbally about this is God's judgment and this is what I believe. But all the time is fulfilling themselves emotionally with something that's exactly like any other earthly friendship. The difference is I know what I'm dealing with. I we know that this guy is an earth dweller. This guy's a student filmmaker. How old is he? 25. Do you have a picture of him? Uh yes. Why do you want to see a picture of him?

Yeah, I'm wondering that too. He's holding a chocolate that we delivered to him via his roommate at a hotel in New York. Why do you get sad when What's his name? Pepin. Peppine. Why do you get sad thinking about Pepine going to hell? Aren't you supposed to rejoice in all of God's judgments? Yes, and I am. I'm thankful for it. And I know that if that's the judgment of God, so why did you get sad? But it doesn't change the fact that it is a wrong thing that his parents did in raising him for the devil.

Wasn't that God's doing? I mean, isn't he a vessel made for destruction? If that's if in the end that's what it is, then that's what it is. So why sad? Because his because of what his parents did to him. And if put in the right circumstances, he would do precisely what Cain did to Abel. If push came to shove, he'd kill her in a heartbeat. Based on reality, he'd kill Why on earth? See, when you kill and also what you when you lie to someone, that's when you lie to someone about Exactly. When you lie to someone about the word of God, that's worse than any physical thing you could do to a person. So, I

can I can talk we can talk to him and we can, you know, have fun and talk about books or whatever, but in the end, I know and he knows that there's a day coming and he's going to answer to the Lord for what he's done. Okay. With my return visit to the Phelps nearly at an end, I was with Steve attending one of their local daily pickets. Do you want to did you want to hold a sign? Uh, it's against my ethics. It's against my religion. Why are you trying to pose a difference between religion and ethics? Because I don't believe in God.

Yeah. Well, you know what the Bible says about you, right? The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." It's a fool, Louie. Well, the Bible would say that, wouldn't it? Are these some of the new ones? Oh, look. This is good. I like that. What about That's a weird one. [__] burger. I like that. I made that. The idea is it's less cruel for them to put them on a bun and eat them than what they do.

They break their moral compasses. They take them into those. Who is the [__] The baby? No, no, no. It's the woman. And you're lying. You're just hating on the truth. Just like a freak out playing dress up. So those costumes, they can't help you out. Promises. Your destruction so marvelous. You ain't ain't nobody. Why you guys think that you can speak for God? Did God tell you to come be? We can read. Because we can read. You read the word of God. That's how we can speak for You can read, right?

Yeah, I can [__] read. So cry aloud, spare not. Lift up thy voice like a trumpet and show my people their transgressions. That means your sin. That means your manner of life. Make it crystal clear what the manner of your sin is. God hates [__] What part of that don't you understand, girl? I don't [__] understand why God hates [__] I don't [__] understand why God hates anyone except for [__] bigot. Because he can. I'm sorry that you were raised for the devil, but I'm going to teach my children what the Lord their God doth require of them. You was raised for you were raised for the devil and I'm sorry about that. Your parents

obviously did not love you. They hated Do you like it better when uh when she gets upset? It's not a matter of what I like, Louie. What I'm telling you is her moral compass is broken. I told you at the house the youth of America, they have no idea what the Lord their God required. To me, as an outsider, it's mildly upsetting to see someone get upset. Do you feel that in any way? I know. I know it's mild mildly upsetting to you. Is it upsetting to you to see her get upset? No, it's upsetting to me that her parents raised her for the devil. And I'm not going to lie to her. She's been lied to way too much already. So, what

I'm going to do instead out of my love for her. You don't accept that you just made her upset. I didn't make her upset. The word of God made her upset. Louie, do you understand? At the end of the day, we know that even though people get upset at us, they're not really upset at us. They're upset with the words. They're upset with the word of God. In the same way, when Christ was alive, we will not have this man to rule over us. will not have this man to rule over us. It's the word. It's not us. Are you happy? I'm as happy as a man can be on this earth. I hope for better things. I seek a I don't live in a continuing city. I don't have a place here. I'm not of this

world. I hope for an eternal spot with the king. I hope to behold the beauty of the Lord. I hope to inquire in his temple. I hope to dwell with the Lord for all of the days of eternity. That's what I hope for. Great God and Savior, we thank thee for those promises. We pray that the judge of all the earth would do right and we know he will. And those that have surrounded us to come upon us to eat up our flesh, that posy of Satan that has been deluded into thinking. My return visit to the Phelps had convinced me that they were embarked on an eccentric mission to live life in denial of the most basic human emotions.

We pray that those that have encompassed about us to do war against us that thou has promised that they that are insensed against us shall perish. That is to say, stifling their own feelings, they felt entitled, in fact compelled to trample on those of other people. Oh, land of breast for the high. When will the moment? Whether they really would move to Jerusalem, let alone a pink cave in Jordan, seemed doubtful. More likely was a pattern of more media stunts, more defections, and a trail of tormented families. Those they pickoted and increasingly their own.

Jesus My time with the Phelps was up, but before I left, I had one last conversation with Shirley. Has it been stressful or weird for you seeing so many people leave? No, actually with each one it gets um kind of expected and just a blip on the radar. As far as you're concerned, it's the correct thing to do for a parent of a child that they've raised for 20 years or more to turn their back and say,

"Actually, from now on, we have no contact and you are as good as dead to me." They have walked away and they have crucified the son of God aresh and laid him to an open shame. Before I would go comfort any of those rebels in their sins, I would first have to, you know, uh, mistreat the it would what would I be saying to my children, my faithful children? We're just talking about some barebones minimal human contact. Life is too short. Eternity is too long. Hell is too hot. I'm not getting anywhere near that edge.

Do you think you'll lose more of your kids? I don't know. I always keep my eyes open and watch my children and sometimes I see something in them that disturbs me. But I'm not I can't be and I am not outcome oriented. I have to stay on task. I just have to be sure they know what their duty is and that they obey. If you lose, if you lose another one, another two, another three, another four, does anything change? No. And if the Lord terried and um all of them left, it wouldn't change anything.