3:05
Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials. In this section, we revisit past episodes and introduce the most effective and practical science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance improvement. I am Andrew Huberman, . Nice to meet you, Dr. McDougall. First, as a neurosurgeon and neuroscientist, tend to view the world from a slightly different perspective than ordinary people. This is because they like to fix and restore, and especially in your case, Doctor, they have the potential to add things that do not yet exist in the brain. I would appreciate it if you could tell me how you think of and conceptualize the brain as an organ, and what you believe are the possibilities of the brain that we have not yet considered
brain is actually an assembly of various functional modules attached with duct tape inside a bony box attached to the head. And sometimes you see very interesting patterns of failure. One of the most memorable patients I have experienced is a patient I met at UC San Diego early in my training. He was a young man who was in a traffic accident and underwent surgery. As is often the case in neurosurgery, we saved his life, but it is possible that his quality of life has decreased somewhat. almost no impulse control ability due to bilateral frontal lobe damage. Just then, a recovery room nurse who looked about 80 years old called us over and said, "You need to come see the patient right away. Something is wrong." He said. When
we entered the hospital room, he pointed at an elderly nurse and said, "That woman won't have sex with me." He said. Uh, as you know, at that moment his frontal lobe was completely damaged, and it most tragic cases caused by brain dysfunction . However, as you know, the brain is responsible for everything from regulating our body's hormones to vision, senses, and the most obvious muscle movements-from eye movements to bicep movements. All of this comes from the brain. Whether it is just one part or the whole garden, everything can go wrong. So, the profession of a surgeon who deals with the brain can be said to be the brain itself. Although the risk is very high, sometimes opportunities arise that are truly helpful, and
chances to fix things that seem unfixable. It is Yes, as you know, one of the relatively new techniques we use is that for patients with relatively small tumors deep in the brain that are difficult to access, the conventional method required cutting away a large amount of normal brain tissue and damaging nerve cells, that is, the white matter connecting the nerve cells drilling a small hole of about 2mm into the skull, inserting a fiber optic cannula into it, connecting a laser , and then heating the tumor in real-time using MRI imaging. When a patient is inside the MRI scanner, images are taken every second and precise location to be found that kills all tumor cells while causing minimal damage to surrounding brain tissue
. So these days, it is not uncommon for patients with tumors that, in the past, could have caused serious damage if surgically treated, to have the tumor removed, leaving only a small hole in the skin. Even in cases of tumors that were previously considered inoperable, such as those in the brainstem, primary motor cortex, primary language area, or Broca's area, and
are undoubtedly utilizing machines through your role at Neuralink and your activities as a neurosurgeon in other clinical settings, and I think we are living in a very interesting era where engineers are raising and beginning to solve major problems And it is no exaggeration to say that Elon Musk is one of the best in this field. If possible, could you briefly explain Neural Link's mission and its overall scope? I would also appreciate it if you could tell me about more specific goals . I believe the basic goal is to understand the brain and improve brain function, and the clinical goal is to solve the problems of people suffering in one way or another Neuralink, of course, as well as the earlier Tesla and SpaceX, are
like blank slates onto which people project their hopes and fears. So we are experiencing many positive aspects. While people believe that we have superpowers to change how our brains work, they also fear that we might commit terrible acts not true. We are developing nerve implants. A robotic implant device has also been developed to insert microelectrodes smaller than the thickness of a human hair into a small part of the brain. Well, the first step we are aiming for is to implant these electrodes into the brains of people with severe spinal cord injuries. In other words, it targets patients with quadriplegia. Brain function is perfect, but the limbs cannot be moved
. The motor cortex of the brain is originally intact, but it is not properly connected to the limbs, so the body cannot be moved. Our goal is to insert an implant into the motor cortex so that patients Through this, patients regain digital freedom and are able to communicate with the world via the internet Why are these chips inserted using robots These electrodes are too small, and the blood vessels on the surface of the brain are too numerous and
densely distributed, so a person cannot physically perform this task. A human hand is not stable enough to grasp a ring a few microns wide at the end of an electrode thread and position it to pass through all the cortical layers to reach the cortical surface precisely, to the desired depth. It would be good if human surgeons were essential to this process, but before long, humans will not possess sufficient motor skills to perform this task Therefore, we must rely on robots to place numerous electrodes in precise and fast locations on the brain in this manner
leading the development of robotic surgeons as much as it is leading the research, augmentation, and treatment of human brain diseases performs part of the surgery. Neurosurgeons, including myself, still have to personally perform the basic surgery of incising the skin and skull to create a clean brain surface so that a robot can suture the electrodes. However, although this is still a matter of the distant future, it is clearly included in the roadmap we hope for. In the short term, we are focusing on people suffering from serious diseases who currently have no other options. To explain in more detail
, you are referring to a patient who cannot move their limbs due to a spinal cord injury, right? The motor cortex that controls movement is theoretically normal. Let's assume that a small hole is drilled in the skull and a robot inserts an electrode through that hole. Of course, it would be inserted into the motor cortex, but elsewhere, where and how would it be inserted? Just like performing a concert from various locations or pressing piano keys in various combinations In this scenario, the lesion site has not been treated at all, so I still do not understand how signals from the motor cortex
can pass through the lesion and be transmitted to the limbs To be more precise, I am Of course, it is on the roadmap, but it is a few years away. What we are talking about now is enabling the patient to control surrounding electronic devices solely through their own motor intentions Right? So, imagine having a prosthetic arm, or a prosthetic arm, or just a mouse and keyboard. At first, the objects on the screen will not appear to be moving . When the patient has an intention, for example, if they imagine clenching a fist or moving their wrist, the mouse cursor moves to the bottom left of the screen, clicks an icon, and opens a word processor.
Then, a keyboard appears at the bottom of the screen, allowing you to select and input characters in order. We are using smarter algorithms to decode motor intentions originating from the brain This technology was implemented very well on monkeys. The monkeys play video games in exchange for smoothies, and they play very well. In fact, we hold the world record for the technology of intelligently controlling a screen cursor using the bit rate of information coming from a monkey's brain. We have developed technology superior to anyone else's Yes, of course. I am willing to do it. However, the early version of the device doesn't seem very useful since I can still move my limbs things that I can do exactly the same way by hand. I mean moving the mouse
or typing on the keyboard. We are developing this device as a medical device for people suffering from serious illnesses for whom there is no suitable treatment. It will be meaningless for a healthy person to use this device in the near future devices specially designed to perform functions that even healthy people cannot do are developed-for example, if we eventually reach a stage where we can type faster using these devices than with our fingers simply by thinking-then it will become a useful use case for people like me as well. To be honest, I do n't think I really need to buy a device that makes using it a little more inconvenient than using a mouse with my own hands. However, regarding the safety of this device,
I can speak with confidence based on my experience of personally performing hundreds of surgeries one thinks such surgeries are strange, and they are considered standard treatments. In Speaking of improving an individual's biological functions, I explain for those of you listening (excluding those watching the video), there is a small bump-like thing on the skin of the back of the hand between Dr. MacDougall's index finger and thumb, or between your index finger and thumb. It has already been about 7 years since we met, and that lump has always been there all this time. What is that, or what is it, and why did you plant it there? yes. That is a small, recordable
RFID tag. It is a very small implantable chip that can temporarily receive power when a wireless device approaches an antenna. The device is supplied with power and can exchange small amounts of data. Most mobile phones have the ability to read and write this chip unlock the front door. For several years, I was also able to open the doors of the Neuralink office and Theoretically, what kind of information can be stored on this RFID chip? And how long can I use it? When should I remove it to charge or replace it? This chip is passive. It is coated with biocompatible glass. I do rock climbing, and I was worried that the glass might break while climbing, so I added an
extra silicone ring before the implantation. So it is quite safe. It is a passive type, so it has no battery and no active electronic devices. So I think I'll be able to use it for a lifetime. I don't think there will be any reason to remove it . Since technology is always evolving, we might be able to remove and upgrade it someday. Products with 10 times more storage capacity are already available, so if you remove it, you will be able to replace it immediately. I think this technology has small, niche use cases and is an interesting proof of concept. Only by personally experiencing the concept you mentioned- that is, the treatment proposed to the patient-can I confidently say, "This is a reasonable treatment
." It is taking one step closer to the concept of. Let's talk about brain enhancement again. You clearly stated that one of Neuralink's primary goals is to enable quadriplegic patients to walk again. To reiterate clearly , the first step is not to reconnect the patient 's own muscular system to the motor cortex. In other words, it enables the patient to control their own movements. Yes, that is correct. Ultimately, it is to enable the body to move. Yes, that is exactly right. Ultimately, it is to enable the body to move. We would like to do that as well. We have how can the motor cortex be reconnected with the rest of the body? If an
implant can be inserted into the spinal cord itself, bypassing the damaged area of the spinal cord, and this implant can be inserted into the brain to enable communication between them, undamaged motor signals can be sent from the motor cortex to the spinal cord. Nerve fibers within the spinal cord are likely to remain mostly undamaged below the site of injury caused by car accidents, motorcycle accidents, gunshot wounds, etc. reconnect the brain and the body in this way Therefore, it will not be impossible to Speaking of augmented reality, I happened to overhear a public discussion about Neuralink between Elon Musk and several podcast hosts, where the idea was raised that, for example, if
chips were implanted in my brain and yours, we could hear each other's thoughts simply by nodding or shaking our heads, whether or not we made eye contact. Of course it would be possible. Can we sit like this and listen to each other's thoughts ? And how can I limit what the other person can hear Yes, it is possible. Think about it. I mean the situation where you take out your phone right now and send a text to my phone, and I lower my head and send a text to you . You can communicate without making eye contact or speaking to each other technology we already know, such as implanting a device that can operate a keyboard and mouse. This is exactly what we are aiming for in the first human clinical trial. So, while
exchanging text messages with the brain might be a bit of a trivial expression, it isn't that difficult to imagine applying the same mechanism to the brain's language processing area to converting them into speech that I can hear For example, through something like a bone conduction implant, you become able to hear without sound. The reason many people are fascinated by technologies like Neuralink is that their potential is enormous. If this technology becomes more advanced and sophisticated, . Developers hope that this technology can be applied to reality like in science fiction. To what extent can these brain-machine interfaces learn and continuously improve? This is because this interface you're right. It works in both directions
. Basically, it is to combine human intelligence with software intelligence that is not complete artificial intelligence but is well-designed to adapt to changes in brain activity, so that they learn from each other. Therefore, a person using a Neuralink device will become more proficient in using the device over time The software developed by Neuralink engineers will also adapt to the brain activity patterns recorded by the device and focus on meaningful signals related to movement over time
neuron shows a high firing rate when trying to move the mouse cursor to the top right, the neuron does not know it at first. When the device is first inserted, from the chip's perspective, it is merely a series of random signals. However, we begin to analyze the correlation with the actions desired by the user, that is, the user's intention expressed through a series of games move the mouse to a target point displayed on the screen. Then, it begins to associate the activity recorded when the user moves the mouse to the top-right target point on the screen with the corresponding utterance pattern. Likewise, the top left, bottom left, and bottom right
model is developed in the software that intelligently predicts the user's intention to some extent, and the user is allowed to freely use this model for a certain period make better use of the model presented by the software, as indicated by whether the mouse cursor moves properly on the screen or not. Imagine a situation where you are asked to play the piano, and the sound coming from each key changes randomly over time . Although it is a very difficult problem, the human brain is excellent enough to solve this problem and map it to a somewhat stable state with the help of software
. For example, it is good enough to remember how to use the mouse even if the signal has changed when you turn off the device at night and use it again the next day Shall we talk about pigs? yes. Elon Musk and his Neuralink What is the reason for using a pig First of all, I would like to mention that Neuralink is composed almost entirely of people who love animals there is a way to help people without animal testing, we will do so. However, as of now, we simply do not know the method. Therefore, we can only proceed with the development of medical devices after proving safety in animal testing to obtain FDA approval virtually all medical advancements indiscriminately slaughtered and
consumed millions of animals for food every day, the discussion regarding animal research would be completely different from what it is today. difficult to understand why the number of animals used in research is extremely small . This is especially true considering the fact that the majority of animals are conduct animal research out of necessity. There is no other way. If the law changes tomorrow and the FDA says, " Initial trials can be conducted on voluntary human participants." What if we announced it as follows? That seems like it would be a very interesting option. I think many people are stepping forward and saying, " Yes, I will participate in the early clinical study I think I would say that. So you've already volunteered? yes
. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. In that regard, I think Neuralink is making a great effort to grant animals as much autonomy as possible in all aspects of research. It is going much further than any organization or institution I have heard of We have an excellent team dedicated to caring for animals and designing experiments. We are making efforts to ensure that animals participate as voluntarily as possible. Except for the surgery itself, no animal is forced to participate in the experiment . For example, if Page, our representative monkey, doesn't want to play video games for a smoothie, no one forces him. The animals So I am not hungry or thirsty. The only factor that motivates animals to participate in experiments is
nor does it provide negative stimuli that force any behavior. One of the underrated aspects of Neuralink's innovation is Yes, pigs are quite commonly used in medical device research, especially in the field of cardiology. A pig's heart is somewhat similar to a human heart Various types of pigs are used in various contexts to optimize diverse characteristics. Therefore, pigs do not necessarily need to be smart or perform specific tasks well. Of course, when studying the limb movements of pigs for spinal cord research, they are sometimes trained to walk on a treadmill, but this does not record
interesting information such as cognitive data. Therefore, pigs are merely experimental animals to verify the safety of device implantation. They are essentially experimental animals used to verify that the device does not malfunction or cause toxic reactions. Monkeys are already been resolved. Or perhaps there is a specific disease you desperately want to treat. That is fine too. But going even further , you could extend your lifespan by 200 years or imagine the world your children will live in. The place where we live, and where their grandchildren will live.
What do you think is really possible through brain augmentation and brain-machine interfaces? When answering, please do not have any prejudices, and I would appreciate it if you could respond in a way that demonstrates your remarkable empathy and consideration for clinical situations. Because you spend your time every day treating patients and making their lives better. However, for the sake of fun and enjoyment, and so that we, the audience, can understand what is truly possible, you are . I imagine a future where, within the next 10, or perhaps 20, years, humans will be able to control the terrible ways in which the brain goes wrong
seen someone suffering from addiction, depression, suicide, obesity, etc., whether through an acquaintance, a friend of an acquaintance, or even indirectly. These functions of the brain. or brain dysfunction are the driving force that moves me. This is the topic I want to cover in my career. When I think about the lives of my children, I dream of a world where human cognitive abilities are fully expanded by artificial intelligence, where cognitive abilities are completely immersed in the internet , and where they can communicate freely with anyone without the constraints of thought or the bottleneck of having to read Wikipedia first to obtain information. It is like exchanging messages through a small straw; we
doesn't necessarily have to be true, either. That has been the way it has been until now, but it won't be in the future. I believe that a better world will come in the future. There are countless science fiction possibilities, such as combining human minds to create a more powerful multi-unit organism, that is, a selectively available multiple brain. To be honest, since these technologies are still in the distant future, it is impossible to even imagine how they will be implemented, but the technology we are developing is like a small opening that opens the door to realistically considering these possibilities. Therefore, we
recommend that those interested in these technologies, especially mechanical engineering, software engineering, and robotics engineers, visit the Neuralink website to check out the job postings. We hope that the world's most outstanding talents will join us in solving the world 's most difficult problems sincerely thank you for taking the time to attend today despite your busy schedule . Thank you so much for taking the time to share the work you are doing with others, literally putting aside your mission at Neuralink and being away from your family to treat patients and perform brain surgery. And above all, I would like to
thank you for your very existence. It might sound a little strange, but as you can tell from the device implanted in your hand, you are not simply doing this as a job. You consider everything about the nervous system as part of life and are researching how to make the world a better place. I am well aware of your deep love. Therefore, I sincerely thank you for doing this work with not only your outstanding intelligence and energy, but also your heartfelt sincerity . Andrew, thank you very much We just want to help people and make the world a better place
