Straight You Features and What to Know

Optimism to me is different. Optimism, you know, I don't necessarily think things will get better, whether that means, you know, for straight women, you know, for romance generally or just, you know, expand it out u politically, but I do believe it's possible that it could. And so I have hope that things could be better for our relationships, for our politics. And so to me, moving away from that position of optimism into that hopeful pessimism, I feel is a little more not only kind of based in reality, but there's almost a sense of responsibility that comes in. Um, because I don't think you can sort of just think yourself out of the reality that we're all in.

Welcome to the gray area. I'm Jonathan Hill sitting in for Shauna Lang. You know that sentiment we see a lot online lately about dating men being embarrassing? That attitude has a name, hetereroesimism. My guest today is Sarah Jones, senior writer for The Intelligencer. She recently wrote an article all about it called Straight Women Are in Trouble. So, I invited her on to discuss romantic relationships, the systemic forces impacting them, and if there's a reason to have hope after all. Sarah Jones, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. You're a writer at New York Magazine where you write about politics and in particular you talk about gender in politics and recently you wrote a column titled yes

straight women are in trouble about women's political reality. My first question to you are the straits okay? No. Well, I mean to be fair, I'm not sure any of us are okay. But no, I really don't think so. Like it is kind of both true that I think women including straight women have made a lot of progress over the decades. I think you know at the same time we are living in a postd United States. um just to name kind of one recent development and it you know sort of that progress feels very fragile and in fact is kind of moving backwards and that sort of has knock-on effects for everyone including the straits.

I asked that question you know jokingly I am one of the straits in question and you know you mentioned dos I'd love if you could lay out more of that political landscape for women right now. What is this uphill battle that we are facing? It is so fraught and I think it has been so fraught for so long. Just to kind of back up and give a little bit of context to the political situation, you know, I come out of conservative evangelicalism. So kind of grew up hearing about Roie Wade and now kind of watching that movement against legal abortion fortunately achieve some real material success. And um I think every woman in the United States is sort of reckoning in their in her own way with the fact that many of

us, you know, have fewer rights now than we did uh when we were born. And when we look around particularly at the Trump administration um and sort of the state of the American right in particular right now has very aggressively embraced misogyny, has embraced racism, has you know sort of really leaned in to these forms of prejudice and bigotry um and been kind of very explicit about um rolling back civil rights for women, for people of color. Um and so you have that you know kind of in the White House and gaining momentum in that way and then um it's it's a very fraught kind of situation to be navigating your life personally at the same time.

These things that you mentioned they impact all women regardless of sexual identity. Why focus in on straight women in this column you wrote? Why not, you know, talk about all of us? Yeah. No, it's a good question because as I say in the co in the column, you know, I'm I'm bisexual, so my perspective is a little bit different, although I am uh I'm married to a man and have been for a long time. Um, and I think it was sort of in response to a conversation that's that's been happening for a while honestly about heterosexuality and kind of, you know, specifically around heteropessimism or hetereroatalism. um you know what's driving that you know

are these just mere abstractions are they really how people are feeling right now and if that's true then kind of why is that happening and also if it is happening what should we do about it and I you know have frankly having a lot of those conversations with my friends as well and not just kind of reading about it in the New York Times or whatever so I that's that's sort of why we I settled on that particular focus it was sort of to like join in on that conversation about um straight women in particular that I see kind of happening everywhere right now. I want to dig in a little into a term you just used and that's heteropessimism.

What is it? Where did that come from? Go ahead and define that for us. It's it's kind of an attitude. It's kind of like things aren't going well for straight women and there's almost a feeling not maybe of shame but also a little bit of embarrassment um around dating men um wanting to date men if you're a woman um and just trying to achieve some distance from that. And you know, I hear that, you know, people achieving kind of an ironic distance, like I'm going to make jokes about this, but kind of there's a serious undertone to the jokes. Um, and I do think it's fair to say like I don't think people are feeling good. Like I think you know that can be sort of a hard thing to quantify but um you know anecdotally I people are writing about it you know

since you know in all the years that heterero pesimism has been something that's kind of out there and something we've been discussing. Um but I do think it you know it does tap into a real way that people are perhaps feeling. I want to get into that irony a little bit. You know, I know in conversations with my friends, it's a lot of gh men eye rolling. Like having a husband is so embarrassing. Having a boyfriend is so embarrassing. And I get what they're saying, but some of it feels like posturing. It feels performative. How much of this is just performance versus actually feeling this way?

It's a great question because I do think that it's really hard to tease out the posturing, which I agree with you. I do think that is a factor. That is something that's happening. Um, and could it be posturing, but maybe a real like there's a seed of something that isn't posturing in it, if that makes sense. Um, there's a reason that we're making a joke. There's a reason we think someone else might find that relatable and kind of funny. And I think there's a lot of different things going on. I think social media can kind of reinforce that level of posturing. um you know it can feel good to chime into a conversation with you know kind of a joke and have people sort of respond and kind and you're like I you

know that feels good and then we look at the realm of pop culture and what's going on and whether that's reality TV or something else you know the real housewives are not okay I think we can agree on that. Um, but then more seriously looking at politics as well and sort of the sort of performance that of like the gendered performance that's kind of coming out of the White House for both men and women in the way that they're, you know, kind of ideally supposed to relate to each other on the right. Um, and so there's a reason that I think people are kind of taking that posture if you know even if I don't know that people are always aware it's a posture. You know, I think there's a

lot going on. Where do you think this attitude is coming from? Is it from daytoday interactions women are having with men? Is it observations about society at large, about what's coming out of the White House, about what we see on TV? How much of this heterero pessimism is based on our actual day-to-day interactions with one another? I think it varies from person to person, which makes this kind of hard to talk about, right, in a really kind of precise way. But I do have friends, for example, who maybe are having a difficult time dating. You know, guys keep ghosting, no one wants to commit. You know, I hear complaints, you know, they're just not quite as mature. And often, you know, that's not just sort of like an emotional sort of

failing. It's like, well, maybe men weren't expected to be mature in quite the same way. they don't kind of have those same expectations on them and there is sort of a resentment that I hear um not just kind of in my personal life and interactions there but kind of in some of the conversation that's happening online and of course you know they're doing most of the child care as American women overall still do you know maybe their husband's not pulling their weight around the house um you know why do women stay with some of these men I you know it's a valid question. I' I've wondered that um many times myself, but it is complicated especially, you know, it's complicated in a material sense like financially

women don't always have the means to leave, but also it's just complicated emotionally. And so I just it there's so much going on and it kind of gets generalized and it kind of gets reduced or simplified I think in some of the conversations we're having about it. What are some of more examples of heteropessimism that we've seen in our zeit guys? You know, you mentioned the way people talk online, these different things. What are some more concrete examples of how we see this show up in our day-to-day lives? So, I have to admit to lurking on some subreddits like Girl Dinner Diaries.

Yeah, I know. I feel bad, but I do I love the drama, but sometimes then it's very bleak and very sad. Um, and but often I kind of have a reaction um that I, you know, some people have written about lately, including I think there was a recent piece in the cut. Uh, just why are you kind of putting up with some of the behaviors you're describing? And then, you know, I have the reaction and 30 seconds later I'm like, well, because it's really complicated, you know, it's and it's like, why am I blaming her maybe? But, um, so there is that kind of going on. And then, you know, I think people are reacting to that. There was a piece in Vogue, I think, not that long ago about, you know, oh, it's people think it's

embarrassing to have a boyfriend. And, you know, I didn't see a whole lot of examples kind of advanced in that piece. And it's sort of hard for me to reconcile. If some people are embarrassed, right, about, you know, dating men, wanting men, having a boyfriend, how do I sort of line that up with what I'm seeing elsewhere, which is like women who desperately do want to be in relationship, who want that connection, as I think we all do, regardless of gender or sexuality, um, and women who may be putting up with some behaviors that, you know, probably are not good for them. Um, and you know, I think those conversations aren't mutually exclusive.

I think they're just kind of looking at different slices of what's going on for women right now. Yeah. I mean, I totally know what you're talking about. You know, you see a Tik Tok of a woman who talks about something terrible that her husband did and everyone's like, "Girl, leave them." And she's like, "Well, no." or like you mentioned, girl dinner diaries, where people will post what they had for dinner along with the saddest, most upsetting story about something their boyfriend did to them. And you know, there are jokes here. It's humor. But is this just using dark humor as a way to cope with a situation that is actually quite bad and at times dangerous?

I think that's a lot of it. Honestly, I know when I look back particularly at my early, you know, mid20s when I was sort of dating a lot, you know, it was very similar. I mean, it was kind of a different era. So, the discourse, the public discourse about that was a little bit different, but it's not wholly removed from experiences that I had maybe 10 years ago. And I think it's only gotten more complicated actually in some ways um as we're all kind of more online and also the changes in our political climate. You know, I am both a huge believer in p pursuing whatever romance you want. Um and I don't think anyone should sort of feel like they can't do that or that's you know kind of too risky for them to

pursue. But I think at the same time it is valid for a lot of women specifically women who are interested in men um that has always felt like a risk. And you know it is true that is perhaps less of a risk than it was for our mothers and our grandmothers. But it's still a risk. And that can range from maybe your boyfriend not being emotionally supportive and it but it can also be a lot more serious like finding out that you know the guy you've been seeing is listening to Andrew Tate you know or worse you know we there's been kind of a lot of conversation about these almost like kind of mixed political marriages where the husband is a MAGA supporter and the wife you know is not um you know those are very real

questions that I think everyone's wrestling with and that includes women When I think of the self-deprecating nature of heterero pessimism, it reminds me of a lot of the jokes that my white friends will tell about themselves. Just sort of like, you know, you sit in this place of privilege. You're like, "Gh, I get it. I roll." Like, oh, am I right? And, you know, I can totally hear a member of the LGBTQ community listening to this conversation and rolling their eyes. Like we live in a time where people are trying to overturn Ober Burgerell. Like is some of this about helping straight people feel better about having kind of an easier hand dealt to them than a lot of their queer counterparts.

Yeah, I think that's something real to think about and I do think that is kind of a real aspect of kind of what's going on. And you know, as someone who covers politics and particularly kind of the right wing for a living, the way I would sort of encourage people to think about it is um you know, you're totally Yeah. make the selfdeprecating joke, you know, but understand kind of the bigger situation that we're all living in. Um you know, the same forces um that are encouraging men to treat women badly are anti-trans. you know, just definitionally anti-quer. You know, these, you know, the same those forces are kind of a raid against what I spoke

about just a minute ago, which is sort of the freedom and the capacity to sort of pursue the romance that is most meaningful to you. Um, so I do think, you know, we have to be maybe conscious of a certain kind of exceptionalism, if that makes sense. Um, that can kind of come through when we're we're we're, you know, making these jokes. for being self-deprecating. And so sometimes, you know, I do kind of wonder where that is coming from. And it doesn't always seem malicious. Like sometimes somebody's just kind of venting or expressing frustration. And I don't think anyone should feel bad for that. But it is sort of worth thinking about the context, right?

All relationships are hard and romantic are no exception. You know, there are going to be highs, there are going to be lows. Regardless of how awesome you are, how awesome your partner is. Heartbreak is inevitable. Does heteropessimism go beyond just trying to protect yourself against heartbreak? For some people I think it can um you know and I think that is a mistake even if it might be an understandable mistake depending on maybe a person's specific ex experience. Say more about that. Well, I'm going to personalize this a little bit, but you know, having come up in the conservative evangelical world, which had a very kind of rigid idea of what a relationship

between a man and a woman would look like and very much an emphasis on getting married, but like a very specific idea of what that marriage would mean for both parties. Um, and it you know, in that world, so the way I protected myself was by not dating other evangelical men. And then I left the church all to together and then of course discovered that you know that specific sort of structure might not be in play anymore but it was complicated in a different way. Um, so I do understand kind of on that personal level how it might be it can feel safe and it might even be safe depending on your situation. Um, to just sort of avoid it altogether or at least sort of move romance down your list of

priorities and maybe we all do that at different points in our lives for different reasons. But it would be a mistake to sort of lose hope. You know, I write about hopeful pessimism kind of very briefly in that column. Um, that is very much how I've started looking at not just relationships, but just politics, everything. Um, I think it would be a mistake to give up hope that you could find something real, something meaningful. Um, life, this is going to sound trit and maybe it is, but life is not safe. Good things aren't necessarily safe as you said. You know, we can't completely protect ourselves from heartbreak. And so it kind of gets into a conversation that I would like

to see more of on this subject, which is, you know, could we make changes politically, culturally, that, you know, maybe wouldn't protect people from heartbreak, but would make it easier for people to pursue love, however they seek to find it, and to make romantic decisions without having to worry maybe quite as much about rent about will I lose my health insurance? You know, could I find a you know, the worst case scenario is there a shelter I can go to? And so, this is going to sound very utopian, but I do like to think about um you know, what it what would it take to build a society where it is easier to love? Um, and I would love to see some more conversation about that.

Yeah. Could you talk a little bit more about that idea of hopeful pessimism because I could hear people hearing it being like, "What? Huh? How are you both of those things simultaneously?" Yeah. And I do borrow that from somebody else. I didn't come up with that one, but I really like the idea. It is it sort of lines up with my view of politics. Um as someone who's on the left, for example. Um optimism to me is different. optimism. You know, I don't necessarily think things will get better, whether that means, you know, for straight women, you know, for romance generally or just, you know, expand it out uh politically, but I do believe it's possible that it

could. And so, I have hope that things could be better for our relationships, for our politics. I have hope that we might have a functional safety net someday. Um, and so to me, moving away from that position of optimism into that hopeful pessimism, I feel is a little more not only kind of based in reality, but there's almost a sense of responsibility that comes in. Um, because I don't think you can sort of just think yourself out of the reality that we're all in. It's sort of half of the conversation. And the rest of it is, you know, what can I do as part of, you know, a movement, part of a struggle, part of, um, a shift. Um, and so that, you know, depending on what issue we're talking about was is going

to look different. But that is, I think, maybe a little more of a helpful way of thinking about it than either just being pessimistic and getting that self-deprecating distance or optimism. It is more thinking about kind of what you've talked about like even the best relationships do require some work from time to time and it's it's hard to be in a relationship whether it's romantic or whether it's platonic. Um that's just that's that's part of being a human being. I think people tend to be very all or nothing. It's you know e either I'm an optimist or I'm a pessimist. Mhm. And I think in this moment we're in right now, pessimism is winning. Pessimism is winning big

time. And when it comes to hetereroesimism, do you think that's part of the reason why we're seeing some of these stats we see, you know, people talking about they're lonier than ever? Gen Z having like way less sex than other generations. Isn't that this fear of like, well, it's bad, so I might as well not thinking about Gen Z in particular. I've written about that too and there have been some good books coming out about it recently and it's complicated. I think there's a lot going on. Um I think it is getting harder for people to make connections with the each other for a lot of different reasons among them just um you know I grew up in a really rural area. I don't know

what teenagers could possibly do outside of school. sort of meet each other or even just kind of hang out and make friends, let alone anything else. Um, and I don't, you know, I'm not a doomer on social media completely. I use it probably too much, but I'm not sure that it's it's always helpful either because it, you know, it does help you build connections, but I also don't and they can be valuable and important, especially if like you're a queer kid in the Bible belt, you know, and you're in the closet for really good reasons. social media is important. At the same time, I don't think it's it's necessarily a substitute for those real in-person connections either. And I do worry that, you know, we're sort of outsourcing that to the

internet. And I um you know, it I don't know specifically what to do about that, but that is something that I've kind of been thinking about a lot. Do you ever worry about maybe the unintended consequences of heterero pessimism? For example, I think of my own life. You know, I've I've been a girl about town. I've gone on my fair share of dates and I've gotten played. Everyone gets played. Everyone plays. It happens. It's life. But I know in those moments where I've been hurt, I've often been like, "Oh, that's so embarrassing. I should have known better. It's my fault." like, "Oh, you know this is how men act. Why are you upset about it?

It's your fault. You should be embarrassed. You should know better." Yeah. No, I know that feeling all too well. Uh and it's not fair to men either. It's not fair to men or women. And I don't want to respond to what I think is a generalization, you know, with another generalization. there just seems to be more and more of a tendency for, you know, people, including myself, I don't think I'm exempt from this, to see a complicated situation, whether that's in politics or whether it's in your personal life. Um, and just kind of have this instinct to sort of simplify it kind of as much as possible. And I think maybe there's just something deeply human about that.

Maybe we've always tried to do that as a coping mechanism, but um not to rag on social media all the time because I certainly don't think it's can I like it has its but you can rag on it a little I think but I think it does kind of reinforce some of these attitudes where it's like you have to take a position and I think sometimes even if the position is clear even if the choice is clear it's still complicated in a way it's complicated emotionally it's complicated politically Um, and you know, in your personal life, it's not necessarily going to be easy either. And you know, for all the rise of kind of therapy speak on social media, you know, I see that getting weaponized a lot actually. And I say

that as someone who's been in therapy for years and loves it. But, um, but I do see it getting weaponized. And I just worry about I worry about relationships in general, whether they're romantic or not. This is advertiser content from IBM. Cold take. When it comes to quantum computing, if you need a million cubits to calculate anything, it sounds like you need a quantum computer the size of a football field. So why are we even trying? My name is Olivia Lanes. I am the global lead for content and education at IBM Quantum. So, you will not need a quantum computer the size of a football field. The quantum chip is really, you know, the size of a stamp. So, the chip itself

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Something that I've noticed, and I'm interested if you've noticed it, your thoughts on it. Um, I think a lot of people talk about relationships and in this context, romantic relationships in theory rather than practice. Like it's this idea of this is what a relationship should be versus I don't know, I think of my parents. They've been married over 40 years. They've supported each other. Like parents have died, people have gotten sick. There have been moves. They raised me. And there were times that was I did not make it very easy.

Uh but they did it and they worked through it because that's what a relationship is versus talking about it in theory. And I wonder are we talking about our lives more theoretical than in practice than we used to? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I have to admit, I do this. Um, and it's it's complicated because all relationships are work. We, as you and I have talked about, but at what point do you admit to yourself that maybe this isn't work I should have to be doing? Does that make sense? You know, yeah. What's the line? What's how what is the line between relationships are hard, this is work versus I need to walk away from this.

I'm not in a good situation and it's not going to get better. And the line isn't always that obvious. I think it exists, but it's it's not always that clear. And there's always a risk that maybe you do call it quits and there was a chance it could get better. Like I but there's no way to avoid that. I think there are ways to sort of manage that, but there are not ways to avoid it and like be a human being and have a full human life. Um and that's where I sort of worry about this tendency. You know, we talked I talked about kind of therapy speak. um therapy is so helpful, but at the same time, it's not always that clear and it's not always that obvious. And I think it can be really hard, especially if you're really

emotionally invested in a relationship and in a person, to make that distinction, but ultimately you're the only person who can do that for yourself. Um and that is part of the work of being in a relationship. I think we've talked a little bit about the forces that are the source of the issues we're having with romantic relationships between men and women. But I want to dig into more of where this is coming from. You know, is it women? Is it men? Is it society overall? Why is this happening to us? And why is it happening to us now?

Yeah, it does seem worse now. And it's hard to sort of tell sometimes. is that is it really worse? Does it feel worse? Um, again, it's I think a distinction we can only make for ourselves. At the same time, you know, this is certainly not the first period of gender backlash that this country has been through. And unfortunately, I don't think it would be the last, but very it is still very much an era of backlash. And I think, you know, romantic relationships probably at a baseline difficult. And now you have all these other, you know, weights sort of stacked on top of it that you've got to figure out what to do with. And um, you know, there are things that I think women, our generation, if they're interested and

men are having to worry about that our mothers didn't have to worry about. At the same time, there are things my mother had to worry about that I'm not necessarily worrying about. Um, so one thing I try to keep in mind for myself, I don't think history necessarily moves in a straight line. And I don't think progress moves in a straight line. Um, and I think that's sort of what people are trying to wrap their heads around right now. And it's not easy by any means to figure out how to be a human being and to live and to be happy yourself, but also to live ethically and be good to other people as you're good to yourself. But I also think, you know, that's not

necessarily on you. there are forces outside you that are making that more difficult and I don't want to just kind of keep referring to nebulous sort of forces but um you know looking at you know economic inequality making it difficult for people to leave a relationship that may not be working for them. Yeah. Could you talk about a little that a little bit more and what that looks like and how that factors in? Sure. I mean, I know in my own life and friends too, you know, sometimes you move in with somebody a little early because you can't afford rent on your own or maybe you get married and part for health insurance or you become

disabled after um after getting married or entering a relationship and need a caregiver. Um, and that if you're in those situations, you know, then structurally I think it can be much more difficult for you to like, okay, well, I need to move out. This is not a good situation, but how am I going to pay rent? You know, will I get into a roommate situation that maybe is just as weird or not good in its own way. Um, can I take my pets with me? That sounds minor, but for a lot of people that's a real concern. um can if I need to like really move away, can I find a job? Can I support myself? You know, there are a lot of reasons economically that make it more difficult for people and I think especially women to make that calculation and resolve it in

a way that is best for them. Something that's interesting about these conversations we have is that I' I've even noticed in my own life a lot of the time it's like all right the men what's up with the men but I think that at times can it can ignore the fact that women can uphold these systems as well and I would love to know how you think about that factoring in you know it's Not just men who hold up patriarchy. No, no. Unfortunately, uh, women have always been part of that. Um, in fact, they've been a really important part of it. And the history of the American right-wing alone, we can point to woman after woman. Um, who has played a

prominent and very important role in upholding those systems. Phil Schlafley, you know, more recently Marjorie Danulfur in the anti-abortion movement. care if we can look at the Trump administration and see a number of people there. Um, and yeah, that is a very important part of the conversation and I think, you know, there are there's a mix of things going on with that. I you know, having come from a very right-wing background myself, you know, women were kind of the biggest enforcers, the more aggressive enforcers in my world of kind of those values and those morals just on, you know, kind of a smaller personal level, not even in politics. Um, and I think it's important to understand why that is. I think, you know, it is very

useful to the right way and to have a woman, white woman, that it can point to and like, see, you know, she loves staying at home. She wants to have as many children as God sends her. You know, this is what makes her happy. Uh, you know, the New York Times has been dedicating a lot of coverage to pronatalism and to figures like Emma Waters at the Heritage Foundation who play a very important role in that conversation and sort of laundering that position. And in fact, I think it would be pretty much impossible maybe for the right to do that without women's very active consent and participation in that. Um, and so that's something we have to reckon with too. So that's like on the right, but I also think if we get outside maybe that realm of

politics or like um you know partisan politics, you know, there are I could you can look around and see you know depending on what community you're from, maybe what religious or cultural background you're from, you know, women encouraging you to stay in relationships that maybe you shouldn't stay in. You know, there was very much a push in my community, not necessarily coming from my mother, but from others, like it's good to marry young, it's good to start having as many kids as possible right away. Um, which may work for some people, but certainly isn't right for everybody. Um, and I but I think that this is kind of another situation where it's important to remember the context and kind of make sure that we're

approaching it in its real complexity, not just nuance for nuance's sake, but um it does I do think that's sort of a problem with this ironic kind of attempt to detach from heterosexuality. Um, it's not really possible to get that sort of distance from the role these women are also playing and upholding a very par patriarchal, very like oppressive in my view um, social structure and view of marriage and relationships in particular. You know, we've spent a lot of time talking about women and how heterero pestimism shows up for women, the role that women can play in upholding patriarchy. But now I want to talk about the men. Can men be hetereroessimists?

Is that what the is the manosphere just hetereroesimism? Like I've heard the argument. Yeah. And I think there's something to it. I mean Yeah. Talk to us. Tell me lay out that argument for us. What is that argument? Well, and I think what we might think of as heteropessism, pessimism for a straight men in its worst and most noxious form is just violence. It's just um domestic violence, sexual assault. You know, there's there's a real air of menace to it. Um, and I, you know, I think that's a lot of where that's coming from, but that is obviously kind of an extreme example, and I don't want to generalize that out to all men who

might be feeling a little bit um down on dating and relationships, too. Like, I will be honest, I know plenty of women I would not want to date. You know, you know, women are fully capable. You know, this is the I'm a feminist. Women are capable of being bad, too. equal opportunity. We could also be terrible people. Yeah. We could Yeah. Oh, yeah. And like I, you know, if a man's had some bad experiences, I really would not blame him for maybe wanting to take a, you know, a back seat for a little while. I mean, I actually think it's it's good in a way for people to take a break from dating and sort of I've done that in the past, you know, just trying to get your head clear. What is it that I want? What am I looking

for? What makes me happy? or you know even kind of how am I behaving to other people is that good or not um I think it's it's really good to take a break but uh yeah I have seen that in men I do get frustrated with the way that conversation sort of manifests in like punditry you know where we're talking about the mascul the loneliness epidemic or kind of the masculinity crisis and I agree kind of there is a masculinity crisis in a way but I don't agree that men are necessarily more lonely than women. It's just looks a little different for men. Um so, you know, I would love to see more conversations that sort of um maybe don't pit men and women against each other because I think that's part

of what we're we're talking about maybe is that tendency or that tension. Why is there that tendency? Why is there that tendency to be like boys versus girls and it's like yeah you're 35. Why are we acting like that? I know at some point we've really got to move beyond it. I and I think it's false. It's like I don't think, you know, we really are in conflict with each other. Um so much as we're in conflict with, you know, widespread cultural social values with um socioeconomic realities that are not good for anybody that sort of, you know, make it harder for people to flourish as human beings regardless of gender.

You know, that's going to have an effect on the way that we relate to each other. And there are going to be times where I think, you know, an individual man might be in conflict with an individual woman. I think the risk is sort of saying categorically um that's that's the case because then I think we get into territory that we see in other situations where like um in the manosphere for example, there's very much this conviction that progress for women comes at the expense of men by definition. And there's no way for women to sort of achieve equality, which they don't think is a real concept anyway, um, without hurting men. And so I worry about maybe inadvertently feeding into that idea.

Oh, that's interesting. Like this idea that, you know, that heterero pessimism at times could feed into that idea of one of us has to win. Yeah. I wonder about that. I don't know if I have like a staked out firm position on it, but it is something that I think about because it is a really prevalent idea and we don't just see it in terms of gender, right? Like this is a very old racist trope, you know, when the Trump when members of the Trump administration are going on about wokeness, about DEI, like they're they're very much playing to that idea that progress for one group comes at the expense of another group.

And it's extraordinarily dangerous, I think. Something that I have tried to remind myself repeatedly just in moving about life is love, success, happiness are not finite resources. Like if one person has it, that doesn't mean I don't get to have it. Those are things that we can all have, right? I think that's really true. There is a sense of false scarcity sometimes. And it is hard emotionally if you're unhappy. Maybe you just had a breakup or you just had trouble finding a relationship that works for you. You might be happy for a friend who's partnered and thriving, but that doesn't mean that you can't also feel a little bit bad that it's not you. M and I don't think that's wrong really if that makes sense but you can

let it get to you in a way that is not helpful because you know that you know there is a point where it can become unhealthy because that person's happiness really has no bearing necessarily on yours and it certainly doesn't mean you know that if you know if I'm not exactly like my friend you know maybe I won't find a relationship either. It doesn't work like that. Like you said, like these are not finite resources. And I think it's um it's good to keep that in mind even if it's difficult sometimes. This idea of women shunning romantic relationships, just saying I'm not doing it. In part it feels like a pendulum swing. You know, for a long time there's been this whole trope of like the overly attached girlfriend, the nagging wife,

the woman who, you know, won't feel complete without a man. that like how many seasons of Sex in the City did we watch and that was basically it. These are things that women have been shamed for. I wonder why is rejecting them not celebrated more widely. Well, because this is simplistic but sexism like that's the whole pick me thing. Maybe there are women who are like that but that is a stereotype as you just said. So it's like well I don't want to look like that. I don't want to seem like that, but if I shun relationships altogether, um, you know, I might for whatever reason, then that's not right either.

I'm going to get attacked for that, too. There's no way to win. But that's kind of the point. There isn't a way to win. You know, there's no way, you know, I think for women to navigate that by sort of swinging from one extreme to the other. Unfortunately, it's just really complicated to try your to live your life with some nuance, too. And that is you know that's why people are feminists like that is a real thing. One thing that you've mentioned before is that you are married you're married to a man. Mhm. How does that square with your heteropesimism if getting married is so as an unmarried person tell me if men are so terrible why get married? Why?

Make the case please. Right. You know well first I don't think of myself as a heter pessimist. I'm more like I said kind of in the hopeful pessimist kind of which I see as being distinct. Um I'm also not straight but I did marry a man so it's sort of you know it's interesting but um honestly you know we fell in love. It's, you know, like I know but it's true like you know I went into the relationship having not dated for a while having come out of as we've discussed a really complicated conservative background and um wanted to make different choices for my life and that felt really risky and had it felt really scary. Um, and then one of the

reasons, you know, I married my husband is like, "Oh, it doesn't have to be scary." You know, I felt very comfortable with him right away. Um, you know, he didn't ghost me or try to make things weird or complicated and um, you know, was just, you know, just a good person without kind of being very showy or performative about it. I felt very safe with him. Um, and that's why that's, you know, why I pursued the relationship. It's why it worked out. And I would hate to see women cut themselves off from that possibility. You don't have to necessarily I don't think you have to be an optimist in order to like pursue a relationship with a man or marry a man or like have a family with somebody. Um, if that's what you want, then you should

absolutely go after it. I think I just think that you can do that while sort of acknowledging the situation that we're all in. And you know, there's a prominent Christian right pastor who thinks we should repeal women's suffrage. And that's that's the reality that we're all in. And so, you know, trying to detach like remember like, okay, that's that situation. That's not the situation I'm in at home. And then but also like if we're a team, we're in a relationship together, how do we navigate that reality? A lot of our norms have been really longheld but never talked about. You know, I think about how for so long relationships between men and women were seen as the default. And now it's something we're

examining more. Like when we talk about gender, we're not just talking about women. We're talking about men. When we're talking about gender, we're not just talking about queer people. We're talking about straight people. Is examining these things that we've taken for granted for so long a good thing? Oh, yes. No, I think so. I may be frustrated with how the conversation goes sometimes, but I'm very glad that it exists. I think it's a net positive that we're talking about this and hashing it out. And the fact that we're we're doing that again makes me hopeful. Um that you know reminds me that we have as a collective we collectively have the capacity to make a better world

for ourselves and everyone else. And I think you know part you know romance love these are not slogans. They are these are not small trit things that is not the realm of social media or reality TV. This is a significant part of what makes life worth living. Um whether you live in the United States anywhere, it's just part of being a human being. And it's such an important part of the human experience that I think it would be a really sad and, you know, worrying sign if we weren't having a conversation like this about, you know, well, how do we love each other and can we love each other in a better way? Are there parts of our current heterosexual landscape

that are worth saving? Like, is this a thing where we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater or are there parts where it's like, actually, this thing over here kind of works? Yeah, that could be. You know, I um I think it depends. Um, it's so hard um to sort of think about heterosexuality as a concept with sort of a concrete, you know, you know, experience attached to it beyond just sort of being interested in the opposite sex, right? Like it's it's so complicated. Um, but I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong. Like if you as a woman um like to be romance, there's certainly nothing wrong with that. I just think a lot of men might

want to be romance too, but there's like there's nothing inherently wrong with that and you shouldn't feel weird or kind of ashamed unless I don't know it, you know, some women maybe I think there was a trend on Tik Tok which who knows what that means but princess treatment or something like that. Yeah. I mean, yeah. You see, I mean, okay, that is as much as we talk about the red pill, the pink pill, it's out there is very real, too. Everyone is talking about stepping into their femininity. Yeah. And it's like often kind of couched in pseudo feminist language. A lot of the tradery on Instagram or Tik Tok is the same way where it's well, I'm empowered to make this choice and it empowers me that I have this specific

dynamic with my husband. And I do think we need to be able to say, "Well, that's not empowering." Or it might be empowering for you as an individual, but it's not feminism. It's it's a distinctive kind of thing. And I feel the same way about the princess treatment stuff or kind of the stay-at-home girlfriend stuff. I haven't heard as much about that lately, but it was a thing for a while. Um, and I think we need to be honest about the fact that if you're doing that, you are making yourself vulnerable. You are kind of putting yourself in a very risky position. And having come from, you know, the sort of churches I grew up in, I have seen that play out really badly.

Um, and I think we owe each other some honesty about that. Yeah. Is that what it comes down to? The honesty? Like I don't know. It's one thing to be like I don't know. A lot of people I know who stay at home, they're like, "Yeah, I stay at home, but I also have a bank account my husband doesn't know about in case things get weird." like, you know, and I think by all means open the bank account, but why does your husband not need to know about? I guess I have questions about that if you have a bank account that you um need to like sort of if you that you don't want to disclose to your husband. I guess I would ask myself some questions about the relationship that I'm in. I think that was actually a plot point in Yester Year, the big tradife novel, which I

actually did not like that novel, but um that was a plot point and it wasn't uh you know wasn't a sign of a healthy marriage in that case. Is heteropesimism resigning ourselves to living in a patriarchal society? Is it saying, "Hey, patriarchy is here. It's not going anywhere. The best I can do is, you know, no, it's bad." It's definitely a way to cope with it. Um perhaps a way to make yourself momentarily feel better because I think as we talked about earlier, it might be posturing, but you do that as a human

being to receive a reaction from other people. And I think to feel a little bit less alone and to feel affirmed in the way that you're feeling. And that's why I would think of it as coping. Um, and I certainly like, you know, we kind of get out into the weeds at some point, but I don't think there's necessarily anything detrimental or wrong about cracking a joke about men from time to time, I definitely do it. But um you know if it becomes like kind of a running bit for example or um some of the ways it manifests itself online or you know I have some questions about that but um I think there are other maybe more constructive ways to cope.

We're living in a time where there are so many ways that relationships can look. You know, there are queer couples, there are non- monogamous couples, there's so much about polyamory and communicating and all these different things. What is out here right now that you think would change straight culture for the better? What would make, I don't know, men less what would make having a boyfriend less embarrassing? I mean, it depends on the boyfriend, but also we've we've talked a little about economics, and I don't want to lean on that too much because I think it's kind of only a factor here, but I do think, you know, thinking about the wage gap or

or kind of thinking about the way health insurance works in this country, um, you know, is important. um and sort of would relieve I think maybe this sense lessen the stakes. I think that's the way to think about it. Like it would feel less catastrophic and it would be less catastrophic arguably for a lot of people um to end a relationship not have it pan out have to be something that you leave. I think that sense of threat or danger that is sort of the subtext to a lot of these conversations would be lessened. and I think or mitigated and I think that's really important to keep in mind. Um, and then but then we get into like the trickier stuff which is just well, you know, based on what I'm seeing on

pop culture, social media, what I might be reading, listening to, you know, watching, you know, trying to remember that, you know, my life is my life. You it might be difficult in some ways, but it's also, you know, I have to make these decisions for from for myself. I have to make kind of the risk calculation on my own. Ultimately, other people can't do that for me. Um, and that's that's tricky. That just takes, I think, time and a lot of work to figure out, honestly. Sarah, where can we find more of your work? I write for the intelligencer vertical at your magazine, and my first book, Disposable, is out now from Avid Reader Press.

All right, Sarah Jones, thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for watching. Each week, we'll be in your audio and video feeds with great interviews and a philosophy-minded look at tech, culture, politics, and much more. Episodes of The Gray Area drop on Mondays and Fridays on YouTube, Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. As always, we want to know what you thought of the episode. So, drop us a line at the gray area atvox.com. And if you enjoy our reporting and want to hear more from Vox journalist, then consider becoming a member of the Vox community on Patreon at patreon.com/vox. person.