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I think the challenge today is, or at least what I feel people struggling with is almost like the old challenge of sitting there with a flower and going, "They love me, they love me not." And I don't know when that was invented, but I feel like we're ruminating, we're overthinking, we're procrastinating. How do you know if someone's actually into you? It's so funny. Thank you for reminding me about the flower, cuz as you said, I was like, "Oh, my childhood." I think what we're really looking for, for me, I'm a big on effort equals interest. And I think we're getting in a time
where that effort is starting to get muddied, right? We're looking at it as, "Are they texting me every day? Are they contacting me?" And we're looking at these dopamine hits as opposed to actually connecting with people. And so I think for me, are you feeling safe, seen, and secure with this person? Now, that might not happen after one date, but is this somebody that is reciprocal? Are they intentional? Are they consistent? Are they showing up for you? And that doesn't just mean that they don't text you for a day, but is this person making plans? Are they actually progressing the relationship? And I
think for me, you know, I'll be honest. Like I have ADHD. So my cadence, my speech, I'm a totally different the way that my brain works. So I might show up differently and be super keen on somebody, whereas my partner is super avoidant and he's not in the texting, and his way of showing up is, "I'm going to spend time with you." And so I think it's really important when we're actually trying to assess if somebody likes you, I want to see one, how does your nervous system feel? Are we constantly in this hyper hypoarousal, hyperarousal? Are we high, are we low? But I really think it goes back to the old school way of doing it. Can you have an open conversation with them? And at
the end of the day, can you just ask them, "Hey, how are you feeling about this and what are your intentions with where we're going?" I know it sounds like, "Oh, we all want a trick and we all want it like something that we can look at." But I found really most people are pretty apt to having a conversation if we approach it in the right way. Yeah, and I think you're right. I think the challenge is that a lot of us still believe that love has to be earned and love has to be won. And so we love the idea of chasing and pursuing someone and they become more attractive the more they avoid us and
they become more exciting the more elusive they are and them not messaging back for 3 days almost makes us think like they must be really busy and cool and interesting and so I've really got to work harder only for us to feel let down because all of those were just signs that I'm not into you. So why is it that we chase people who are disinterested or showing disconnect, not doing all the things you just said, they're not consistent, they don't make you feel safe, they actually make you feel insecure because you're constantly worrying whether they like you or not. Why do we keep chasing them and what should we do instead?
The number one question I ask is if you're chasing somebody, if you're going into the ruminating and the spiraling, I want you to check in with how old do you feel and where did I learn this from? Because those are the two questions two things in general that changed my life. Now, why do we do it? It's interesting because when we ask why questions and not that we're not going to answer it but ourselves, why don't they like me? Why don't they Why aren't they into me? That's intellectualizing. And when we're intellectualizing, that's our way of saying if I can understand it intellectually, I don't have to feel it. And for a lot of us, at least me, I grew
up in a very chaotic household. I grew up with no safety. Really, I there wasn't a presence of joy or love. And so for me, it felt familiar. My nervous system understands, oh, you're not into me, similar to my dad, then let me make you let me earn it. And then there's the term repetition compulsion. Have you heard of it? Mhm. No, I've not actually. So repetition compulsion is a Freudian term. And essentially what it means is you're going to date the parts of you that haven't been healed. Say that again. That is so good. Yeah, so repetition compulsion means you're going to date the parts of you that haven't been healed. So for me, I had a narcissistic father. Every man I dated was incredibly narcissistic. Why?
Because my nervous system's homeostasis was you need to earn it, you're not enough, there's something wrong with you. That gets wired into us before words can even be said out of our mouths. That is wired in based on how your caregivers are tuned to your needs, how are they showing up for you? And I want to preface as well, no one's villainizing anybody's parents. This isn't about you're the worst parent, you had a big T trauma. Often times it could be those small little paper cuts that start to add up. Maybe you had a parent that was really busy and they just didn't make eye contact with you. And so now you feel that I need to get somebody. And often times we're self
abandoning because if I can get you to like me, well then my dad was wrong and everybody in the past was wrong. But what happens? Then it reaffirms my core belief, see, I knew there was something wrong with me. That person doesn't want me. I couldn't change them. That's where I ask, when I start to chase somebody, how old do I feel? Do I feel like a kid? Do I feel like man, I feel like I'm 7 years old talking to my dad. So then we're not actually present. We're not in this present moment. We're not coming from the adult, we're coming from the little wounded kid that just needs to be
seen, heard, loved and understood. Then what I would say is I start to look and say, what are my choices? If you can't access your choice, then that means we need to regulate. And so this is something that actually blew my mind. My friend's a brilliant neuroscientist, his name is Dr. Chris Lee and he taught me, your state determines your story determines your strategy. Tell me about what that state means. So the state being, are you what is your nervous system state? Are you regulated meaning I can access my prefrontal cortex, I can access choice. Right now I feel safe. Both of us are here. But if somebody came in with a knife, we would get disregulated. You might bolt, I might freeze, right? Our nervous system will change.
Yeah, I would just leave you. Right, yeah. I would be hiding. But everybody handles it differently, right? You might fight. Everybody is going to come out depending on what feels safe and in the moment. But often times the problem is that there's no tiger, there's no threat, it's just our nervous system is perceiving it because our brain wants to save space. And if our brain says it's easier for me to go this always happens, then I don't have to turn my prefrontal cortex on and access that place of choice. So when we look at your state, think about it in if I'm super disregulated, my state is going to determine the story. I'm not safe. I need this person to answer me. There's something wrong with me. I'm not good enough, which will
then determine my strategy. I'll text them again. I'll get them to like me. As opposed to I need to learn to sit in the discomfort. I have to allow myself because when we can sit in the discomfort and expand our window of tolerance, which essentially means how long we can stay in our ventral state versus going up and down. When you expand your window of tolerance, you can handle more things. Then it's not as scary, right? The person that doesn't call you, it's that's okay. Maybe they're going through something. I don't need to make it about me. But often times the reason we go after these emotionally unavailable people is because they're familiar. They're familiar, they're safe, and it's baseline because if that's all you've
known, then that's all you're going to do. You can't do better until you know better. Do you take private clients? Sure do. I have so many people I want to introduce you to now. I'm so excited that you're here. I couldn't agree with you more and that's that's set so deeply and resonates so strongly for me right now as you're saying it. Is there such a thing as immediate red flags? Are there things that people can say and do that you consider to be immediate red flags? 100%. I have a few that come to mind.
The first one is my favorite question to ask on a first date is how did your last relationship end and what did it teach you about yourself? I don't care about your ex. I really I could give a What I care about is what did you learn from it? Are you growth minded? Do you take accountability and ownership? For instance, the biggest thing that narcissists will say is all my exes are crazy. Okay, well, if all of your exes are crazy, what's your accountability in it? Do you have any empathy for their experience? That off the bat shows us no, thank you. Another thing that I always suggest to run is when somebody
tries to say you deserve better. Because when someone says you deserve better, what they're saying is I'm not going to become the version of what you need me to be, so you should find somebody else. We also want to look, what happens when you say no? That doesn't work for me. Do they respect your boundaries? Are they pushing back? I've had that, right? When I dated, if somebody said, "I want to go out at 10:00." I would say, "Oh, no, I I go to bed by 9:30. I apologize. It doesn't work for me. Why don't we do 6?" Oh, wow. What? Is there something wrong? Is your babysitter not going to let you Unmatch immediately because you didn't respect what I had to say. So, then what
what are we leading towards if off the bat you're making fun of me for setting a boundary? So, I think what's important is we're so focused on are they choosing me? Are they going to pick me? That we end up self-abandoning and say my wants, needs, and desires don't matter. I need you to like me. And so, we then overlook all the red flags of well, are they showing Are they holding any space for you? Do you Do they use I statements or do they blame you for everything? Right? These are the little things that we overlook and not because there's anything wrong with us, but because maybe we weren't taught any better. And I know I wasn't. I used to think grandiosity and the charm butterflies, those are my favorite thing until I
found out butterflies are actually your nervous system's way of telling you that you might need to run. Because if that person wasn't as attractive, you probably wouldn't be as interested. That's exactly what I find. We're willing to tolerate so much poor treatment because we find someone attractive, interesting, or fascinating in whatever way, whether it's their mind, their body, their face, their charm. And someone who doesn't have those features that we subjectively are attracted to, even if they did all the other things, we just push them away. But again, it comes back down to what you're saying that those butterflies that we trust as a sign of excitement and chemistry and desire are usually a sign of please you're feeling all this, but
don't ignore all of this. What happens when someone shows you all the right things for 4 to 6 weeks? So, they text back. They're consistent. They show up when they say they will. And then all of a sudden after 6 weeks of spending nearly every other day together or seeing each other multiple times a week, they change. Now, they're inconsistent. Now, they message back after 3 days. Now, they don't have time to see you. Something's come up in their life. And then you're waiting around only for 3 months in, they go, "Yeah, this is not working out." That comes as such a shock to people.
Now, love bombing's one version, but that often feels like it's one person just trying to win you and show you and kind of you know, kind of give you this perception that they love you, but this is more like, "No, we're just both being adults. We're connecting. There seems to be regulation. There seems to be consistency. I'm seeing all the good signs." But then 2 months in, you're totally different person. How have you seen people deal with that in a good way or in a healthy way? It's jarring, right? I would never I'll never discredit any one's experience that when you think everything's good, but even you said something in the
beginning that was really important. If they spend every other day together, it's like that's intensity. And that's the thing. And that's why it can feel really scary and really because there's a lot of people depending on the attachment style that they have where they go and they operate from feelings minus fear. And so for some people, they'll go in 100% of I feel really good now. I feel really good now because they're not taking a minute to say, "Hey, is this actually what I want? What does this person have? Are there qualities?" For a lot of people, they might enter it in excitement. Look, they're there, I'm here, and we're excited, we're excited, we're excited. And then the novelty wears off because the person is
consistent, because they're not playing games, they're not being activated in the same way, and that's usually when you'll start to see the pull away. For me, that's why I'm a big proponent of going slow. Going slow isn't an excuse for bad behavior. Going slow just means you're not expediting the stages of a relationship quicker than they need to be. And so what that could even look like is saying, I sorry, I have plans this week. I can only see you once or twice because I'm maintaining my life. You haven't earned a place in my life yet. And I see that a lot of the times, and I used to be her. I would meet a guy, I saw this terrible dating advice.
She said, "Always have your dates on Thursday because if it goes well, you can make plans for Saturday." And I said, "Oh, absolutely not, no, ma'am." Because then I'm too accessible. Then what I'm telling this person is I have nothing going on. What do you want to do? And instead, they're an addition to my life not instead of. And so if I'm welcoming you into my life, you have to earn that place into my life. And so I would say this, if it's happened, the best thing to do is one not take it personally cuz we have to ask how could it be you? Now, if you can remove yourself and say, "Yikes, okay, I text them 300 times yesterday. I called them a bunch. I started accusing them." Great, if you can be self-aware
enough to remove yourself and understand it. But a lot of the times we have to say, "What's the story and the narrative that you've created about the situation?" Cuz that's usually what's hurting more. It's less about, of course, right? But if you knew this person for a month and a half, do you really know anything about them or is it the idea of them? The scarcity mindset, I might never meet anybody else. They were the best I've met. I haven't met anyone like this. So then we're already putting them in a place that they haven't earned. Because if they were so amazing, then they would have stuck around. And instead of thinking about what if, we have to look at what is. And what is that this person didn't show
up in the ways that I need. That doesn't work for me. Yeah, I can't wait to send that to so many people that are listening to because sadly it seems to be the reality and I agree with you completely that it's all about that regulation because when we like something, we want to fall in love and we want it to be real and we want to speed it up and we want to spend every night with that person because that's what the movies showed us and that's what the music talked about and that's what we believed was love not only to realize that you are just making your access weaker, you're giving away all of yourself with not even knowing whether this person deserves it or has the values for it or has the character for it. And you can
see it in hindsight but then you go and make the same mistake because we all just want to be wanted so bad, we all want to be needed so bad, we want to be loved so bad that we're willing to give away our energy, our presence, our body freely because it just feels so good to be wanted. Of course, who doesn't want to be wanted? But here's my question, who do you want to be wanted by? Them or you? More often than not, when we're I need them, I need them, your littles aren't scared that they're going to leave you. Your little just scared that you're going to leave them, because that's what's always happened to them. If
growing up, even for me, my experience was my father was very abusive to us, and he was not father of the year by any means. And so for me it was please come back for me, please come back for me. And I didn't realize that in my dating life, I was doing to her what my dad did to me. I was doing to her and saying you don't matter to me, get away, you're too much. So if I'm shaming and blaming myself, how am I going to grow? If I show myself compassion, I can actually do that. And I understand the need and desire to be wanted, but if we, my mom again will say, if you got to love yourself more than the need to be loved by other people. It's not that I can't love you if you don't love
yourself. That's a fallacy. I mean people can love you if you don't love yourself. But if I need you in my life versus want you in my life, it's going to be very dangerous. And I found that out when my dog passed away. I feel like right now everyone is exhausted with dating apps, setting up dates, figuring out who's going to pay for it, where you're going to meet, where do you start if you're exhausted with dating, but you want to find love? I think what's really important is that we have to look at what's exhausting us. I used to get exhausted from dating because I was putting so much pressure.
I was putting all I would match with a guy and me checking my phone hype like every 3 seconds, where are they? Have they answered me? Because what was I saying? They're going to make my life better. This is what I'm waiting for. This is what it is. And if I'm again, if I'm not focused on what is right now, then I'm thinking of all of these other things that could be. And so I would say, if you're tired from dating, then we have to start taking a break where they need. And that just means again, let's talk about state, story, strategy. If your state is burnout and exhaustion, and you are just completely done, then your story is going to be there's no one for me, I'm so tired, I'm never
going to meet anybody, I want this to be done. So what's your strategy going to be? You're going to constantly go after the wrong people, you'll hold on to people cuz you're scared to let them go. And I think here's the thing, What I've learned and why people are so tired of dating is because they haven't learned to grief. Because when you hold on to everything and you haven't learned how to grief the ending of things, it's going to be very difficult for you to move on and go to the next and go to the next. Because the reality is my partner always says, "Think of the stupidest person you know and remember that the population is about 49% stupider, right? Like there are a lot of duds. There's some amazing people out
there, but that's what dating is. And dating is that you go out and you see not just are you choosing me, but do I choose you? Do you work with my life?" But I can't do that unless I learn to grief. And so I think for the lot of the fatigue, we need to look at and say, "Where is that coming from?" And then ask, "What are my choices? Do I have to engage in that?" No. I met my partner on an app. You don't have to meet your partner on an app, but if your answer is I don't want to do dating apps, are you okay getting rejected in person? Are you okay going up to someone and saying, "I love that sweater." and they go, "I have a girlfriend." No worries. Thank you so much. Was asking for that my brother,
but thank you for telling me. Right? You've got to be okay and be really grounded in yourself. Apps are easier because you're And so I think it's the expectations that we have. And we have to remember apps are a dopamine addiction loop and so is your cell phone. That's why I'm a big fan of don't text a lot because what happens when you meet somebody and you start texting a ton, you're creating a dopamine addiction loop. And so your brain is going, "I need more." because it's trying to baseline. And then when you're stressed, all of your neurotransmitters are being depleted and then here we are where you're a hot mess because the person didn't text you back in 20 minutes. And so I think the exhaustion
and fatigue really comes from what are we thinking that these people are going to give to us and then how can I live that life now so that when I meet someone I say, "I'm allowing you in my life cuz you're not going to mess with what I have." And that's how it was when I met my partner. I was a shell of a human. I'd lost Claim, my company. I was supposed to be in Shark Tank and it didn't work. It was a whole thing. But I remember thinking in my head, "I can't afford to lose myself." And so when I met him, I was like, "Hey." And I looked him in the eyes.
I'll be honest with you. I slept with my partner on the first date. And I looked him in the eyes when we left after we went to dinner and I said, "I had a really great time with you. And if this is all it was, thank you so much. I really needed tonight. But if not, and you're going to call me again, don't waste my time. You better call me cuz you're intentional." And he was like He thought that was so sexy. He was like, "Man." And he said it, "You weren't afraid to lose me." He was like, "You were more afraid to lose yourself." And that made it very sexy because he knew that me wanting him in my life wasn't me trying to hold on to him. I was choosing him.
Mhm. I love that energy. That's so cool. Yeah. It's a different energy. Yeah. And that's I think And I'll be honest, I didn't wake up like this. I used to be so I created my career because I was so anxious I couldn't sit still. I would Oh my god, Jay, you don't even want to know. In my heyday, I would text a guy and say like I would text him, "Hey, do you want to hang out?" 20 minutes would go by, I didn't hear back. I'd write, "Okay, I guess not." And then I'd get a text from him and be like, "Hey, I actually did want to hang out with you, but not anymore." And it's like, they're right. That's so good. cuz they could pick up on I need you. And nobody wants to feel that when you just met somebody.
Yeah. It's a very overwhelming feeling. I don't care what your attachment style is. You talk about setting a foundation in dating. I want to hear about that because I think when people are dating, we almost see it as just like, "Okay, well, this person messaged me back. I'm now talking to them. Now we're going to go on a date. Maybe this other person I don't think we have a system. I don't think we have a foundation. I don't believe we have non-negotiables that we create and craft to keep us on track. What would you say are the foundations of dating? And what are the non-negotiables that allow us to make that experience more effective for us? For me, my number one non-negotiable was
you have to be done with your ex. Like I am so tired of hearing, "Oh, my ex wants to get back together. I'm not over my ex." It's like, then please don't get back into the dating world if you don't feel like you can be present with somebody else. It's okay that you might still be hurting, but then please don't go back out there. I think for me, I want to see are you growth-minded? My partner always asked questions and the one question he asked was, "What is something you changed your mind about recently and what prompted the change?" I to see are you rigid or you flexible, right? We want to start to understand that. What happens when I say no? What happens when I set a boundary?
How do they treat waiters? I want to see somebody when they're dysregulated because then I want to see, "Did you just yell at that person because he didn't get your car at the time that you wanted?" No, thank you. I have no interest in this. And so, what we're trying to look and see is that, first of all, is like, "Does this person treat other people well? Is it somewhere where I can feel comfortable? Are they using I statements? Are they saying, 'You never call me. You never do this.'" Okay, so we're using all and never. Those are not really fair terms. But, I think when we're talking about a solid foundation, that's where going slow comes into play because what we're doing is we're saying every single time I see you, it's first
date just to see if I want to have a second. Second, just to see if I want to have a third. But, oftentimes we go on a first date and say, "Prince Charming." And the thing is Disney lied to us because Disney told us what happened happily ever after. They didn't tell us did Prince Eric have a drinking problem, right? Like, did Beauty and the Beast did Belle not get out of the house again? Was she dealing with that? We don't know what comes after it. We just see happily ever after. And so, what we're really looking for is what does that look like to you? And I think for me, I was so focused on, "But, if you like me, I like me."
Instead of saying, "No, I actually don't enjoy that." And holding the space to say, "I don't like that." And if you don't either, that's okay. But, I think the solid foundation comes when you can have a space where you can trust and that includes hard conversations because I think a lot of people, and I'm sure I'm curious if you hear this as well, I hear it every day of, "I don't want to be too much. I don't want to push them away. If I ask that, they're going to think I'm too much." Then good go find us. If you think I'm too much, I'd encourage you to go find less because that doesn't make me too much. What that means is that I want to see if you are okay for me. And that's why I'm big on
if somebody says something that hurts you, "Hey, can I share something with you? What's going on? I really didn't love the way you said that. It really made me feel small. I felt very dismissed and discredited. Moving forward, can we have a different way of saying it?" If your partner absolutely, thank you so much for telling me. Great, move on. Go into you past go, collect $200. But, if you can't even have the rupture, the regulate, and then the repair, you're not going to be able to move forward with these people. And so I think from the beginning, that's why I told my partner that after first date. I could have left and gone play it cool.
Oh my god, don't say anything. What did I have to lose? I had myself, and that was way too high of a price. And so I'm a big fan of don't trauma dump. God, please don't trauma dump on a first date. Please, please, we don't need to start talking about like how your father hit you when you're a kid. Your date does not need to know that. We have to be really cognizant that we don't know who these people are, and we don't know what information they could take and put in their back pocket and use against us. Trust is conditional. I give you a little, I see what you do with it, I give you more.
Yeah, absolutely. That's the foundation I want people to build, which is I trust myself because no matter what, I have my back. And if you don't, that's okay, I do. Because I'll speak my voice now needs to be heard, and it never was. And I think that's part of the foundations, is having your non-negotiables mean I'm not playing small anymore. It doesn't mean I need to overreact, but I'm not going to play small. What are the signs of an emotionally unavailable person? Somebody who's emotionally unavailable is going to consistently buoy conversations back to shallow. So it notice that you're like I can't seem to have any depth with them. They just keep
bringing it back to that. That's the first thing with an emotionally unavailable person. The second thing, they shy away from any conversations of commitment. If you even ask like, do you want to do something on Saturday? They it they really struggle. They struggle to let you in. And so that's where we say everything is shallow. There's a lot of like And so really what I see is like one of my friends is dating a guy and it's so classic, right? They'll they'll hook up, they have a great night, hear from him for days. And the minute she brings anything up to him, it's just got to go. Can't talk about this. Sorry, I don't want to do that. I'm uncomfortable. Now, a lot of people would look and say,
well, if you wanted to, he would. He must just not want her bad enough. But what we have to look at is capacity. Because in our brain, want and do are two different parts of our brain. So I can want a lot of thing. I want to be a millionaire. I'm not. Is that because I don't want it bad enough? No, there's there's other things along the way. But somebody that's emotionally unavailable, what we have to look and say is it doesn't mean that they're a bad person, but what that means is that they can only meet you as deeply as they've met themselves. And if that person is saying emotions are scary, I don't want to be vulnerable, that makes me uncomfortable, then how do you think
they're going to hold your space? How do you think they're going to be able to show up? Because a lot of people look and say, "Oh, come on, it's just a relationship. Why won't you commit to me?" Well, what comes with commitment? Commitment comes with having to be accountable to somebody else's emotions and feelings. You were both that you're married, I'm in a relationship, you know, being committed to somebody is more than just you go to the movies or you go to the park together. That's holding space. That's learning to regulate. That's learning to coexist with somebody else. And if somebody's not in that space, my partner, he lost his sister of 3 years ago before we met.
She took her own life, unfortunately. And he really struggled for that year to open up to anybody because he was in so much pain. Now, is that because he didn't want to? Absolutely not. But he was emotionally unavailable because he couldn't hold the capacity for his own emotions. How is he going to hold it for anybody else? That's why they're shallow and they don't really go deep because it feels very scary. And for a lot of people that are emotionally unavailable, it doesn't really matter the attachment style. Here's the thing that people hate. A lot of people like to say that the avoidants are the emotionally unavailable. And while they might be, so are the anxious. Anxious people are also
emotionally unavailable because they're not actually understanding what's coming up for them. They're focused on the other person. So when we outsource, then where are we being in touch with our own emotions? Are we able to say, "I feel this and this is how this impacted me?" For most people, they can't. And so I think what we have to look at is there a discomfort with depth, with emotionality, and with going there? That's the first step that you're going to tell. And my suggestion would be, please don't try to change them. That is something that person will do when they're ready and they have the capacity to do it, but you coming into their life isn't going to be what changes it. And that's the reality. And I think that's almost what upsets us
more sometimes because we go, "Wait, they the potential for it. They just don't have the capacity for me. So, I'm going to be the one to open up that capacity or if they really like me, they'll get that capacity and it annoys us more. So, it's frustrating cuz when someone just when we believe that someone just isn't that person, it's okay, but when we believe they are that person, they have the ability, but they don't have the capacity, right? If someone doesn't have the ability to be empathetic or understanding, we're like, "Okay, they don't have the ability." But when you're like it's a capacity issue, you're like, "Oh, that If they love me enough, they'll have it." What do you do then?
You accepted that they might not and that's the reality. If there's somebody that's growth minded and says like my partner and I, [clears throat] we're in therapy because he is a thousand percent in of like, "I want to work through this. I don't want to be emotionally unavailable. I don't want to be avoidant." He's like, "I want to be secure. I want to show up for you as the man you deserve." I didn't change I didn't make him do that. I told him from the beginning, "If you don't let me in, I can't continue doing this." Yeah. And I set boundaries and that's what's important is if you meet somebody and they're saying I dated one guy and he said, "Oh, you know I'm emotionally unavailable." And I said, "Yeah." I
said, "Get out of my house." I was done with him. Done. Because every time I'd go and say, "Hey, I need to hold you accountable. You said you were going to do this and you didn't." God, don't you have your own life? Why are you [snorts] deflecting this onto me? You're not taking accountability for what you did. Now, I could have sat and said, "Maybe one day." I'm not betting on potential because my dad never changed, so what makes me think these people will? Didn't matter how much I loved my father. Didn't matter how much I showed up for him. It didn't matter how much my mother didn't
matter what she did for him. It didn't change who he was because that's not how this works. And so I would say, "If you're dating somebody emotionally unavailable who is growth minded and saying I'm willing to do the work, chef's kiss." All right, continue on and see if they have the capacity and they might not. That's a very real reality. They could do all this work and you can still say, "But I need more." But often times it's not that I need more than you, I need more of you. And that's a really big discerning distinction because if I need more than you, I'm out of luck. But if I need more of you, we have something that we can work with if they're willing to do the same.
So good. Yeah, I love that. You can't love someone into change. You can only love them as they change. And I think that's the mix-up where we think if I love this person enough, they will change. No, they won't. They will stay exactly the same. You can only love them as they decide to change if they want to. And chances are if they're not showing you And by the way, most people are telling us the truth. Most people are already saying like, "You know what I'm like. You know I'm not ready for a relationship. You know I don't really think that way. You know I'm not into this." People are already telling us, but we ignore it. We just don't want to believe them because we secretly are
wishing, wanting, waiting, hoping that something will miraculously or we think we see a spark of it within them. We think we see a glimpse of it within them because they show it to us once every 90 days. Right. And we hold onto that once every 90 days and go, "But that's who they really are." It's like situationships, right? When anybody in situationships, it's like, "So which one are you out of the bun tree? The one with commitment issues or you the one that says that's insecure?" Because what How do we get into that dynamic? How do we get into the emotionally unavailable dynamic with people? Because we're not taking up space. Because one person is saying I'm
going to play the cool guy or girl. I'm not going to have any needs. I'll be the two-dimensional. And that's why the nice guy and the nice girl finish last because that's all they have. For me, I find it so sexy when someone tells me no. And not in the like just to say it. I find it really sexy if I say I really like this knit and they Oh, I actually don't. Right? And you're like, "Tell me more. Like what don't you love about it? What was your experience? How did that land on you?" Versus whatever you like, I like. And that's just like not really a place that you want to be. But I think when we're talking emotionally unavailable, to your point, people are pretty honest. And I think
[snorts] I'll say this. I used to date the emotionally unavailable people because that was my baseline. I knew how to keep myself safe. I knew how to perform. I knew how to try to be the fixer. I knew how to put to project onto them all the things that I wanted them to be. And that's why my mama would say, "What if or what is? Right? What are we looking at here?" Now that I'm in a healthy relationship, I got to say, you know when someone's into you when they like you. This person is going to call you. They're going to have conversations. If you come to them with something, they work with you through it because it's not about like I'm not a fan of the don't go to bed angry. Go to bed angry with a plan to talk in the morning
because we need to have the rupture, but regulate to have the repair. And I find that with the emotionally unavailable and then with the other dynamic because if you're secure, you don't entertain emotionally unavailable because you know you deserve more. And if you don't demand it, who's going to? Versus if you're insecure and you're like, "This is all I can get. There's nothing else." and you're convincing yourself and you're translating crumbs into a meal when you deserve the entire loaf, not just a morsel of what they're giving. And like you said, you can't love someone into changing, and that's the reality. Love isn't enough. I wish. Oh boy, I wish you I wish all we had to do
was just love somebody. But if that were the case, my mother would have changed my father. She did everything. She literally would have morphed herself into a pretzel, and he still said, "You're not baked enough for me." Because when someone just doesn't have that, nothing I do will change that except walking away because that's for me. And I'm not a fan of walk away no matter what. I think we're in a time where everything is I don't like this, so leave. I don't like that you say this, I'm going to go. You don't say what I want, so I'm going to leave. No, no, no, no. That's just rigidity. But what I am saying is if I'm not seeing progress and if I'm not seeing that this person has any kind of depth that we can get there, I'm not going to continue to waste my time.
It didn't work in childhood, it's not going to work now. Do you believe in right person, wrong time? I don't. I think what makes someone right is that they're in your life at the right time because for me, I believe that there are people in your life that maybe you met them at a time that didn't work for you, but I don't believe in holding on to people just because of timing. Now, I think timing is incredibly important. I think timing and proximity mean way more than love because if I'm not at the right place at the right time, it's going to be hard. But I don't believe in holding on to people. If
they're right for you, they'll come back organically and naturally, but you don't need to hold on to it. And I think when we say that, we grip on and say, "But, that's the person for me." And then you miss out on the all the doors that are opening cuz you're staring at the window that's that's closed. I'm with you on that. I don't challenge you either. I just think like you can meet someone that you like a lot at the wrong time. That isn't that's the definition of they're not the right person. And so, it's not that you won't meet someone who's amazing or you're in a bad point in your life or the opposite where you're in a great point in your life ready for the most amazing person and they're not ready and that doesn't make
them the right person. And like you said, it doesn't mean they can't be the right person one day, but yeah, it isn't the thing right now. But, I think sometimes we tell these things to ourselves cuz they make us feel special and better and We love bumper sticker slogans. Our brain loves them. That's why if they like you, you know, if not, you'll be confused. No, dating's really confusing. I don't know who said that, right? Dating is really weird. I There's a lot of confusion. If you wanted to, he would We already went over that. Same, right person wrong time. Because what happens is when you chalk people up to 140
characters or less, you just slap a bumper sticker and call it a day. But, we are such nuanced creatures. We are so complex. We can't be chalked up to just a saying because then that's insinuating all of us are the same and I'm fairly certain a lot of us are different. Yeah. [snorts] And so, I think what makes somebody that they're right If I had met Ryan when his sister passed, we would never have been together. Now, that doesn't mean that in the past like I'm sure you and I have gone on probably dates that are not your wife, not your partner. They're like, "Man, that was amazing." That doesn't discredit the connection that you have and that doesn't mean that your partner is not it's a different connection and we have to be okay to
know that you're right, if this person's not for me. And not to mention, what makes us want them even more is that usually they don't want us because that is going to go into I have to prove it, let me earn it, I can get them and we go right back into the wounds instead of saying, "Thank you so much. I'm going to move on with my life." When I did, I on to a guy I met my partner 4 months later after I let him go cuz I said I you right person wrong time, you're just not for me. And I'm glad I didn't. Yeah. Talking about dating being confusing, I want to talk about texting and dating because this is you're a pro at this.
You know all the techniques to seduce people or get people but the reality of being really clear about it. So, texting etiquette when dating, I have a few questions for you. Talk to me. If you've only been out with someone one time, is it okay to ghost? It's not my favorite thing to ghost, but I would say we have to depersonalize it. If you've been out with this person once, nobody owes anything. Now, I know people are going to scream and say, "But it's your time and it's this." I would love it if you tell somebody, "Hey, I'm not interested." But I've seen the other side of the coin. I've seen people lose their marbles. I've seen people
attacked. I've had men show up at my house because they somehow figured out where I lived and were upset that I didn't want to see them again. So, I would say this. It would be nice if you said that you don't want to see somebody, but if it doesn't happen, don't take it personal. Welcome to dating. Okay. They tell you they don't like texting during the day because they're busy at work, but you still get anxious when you don't hear from them. How does someone push through that?
Oh, that's that's our nervous system. That has nothing to do with them. That person clearly communicated. They told you they don't want to text. They let you know that they have a life and they're doing other things and not everybody you I'm so tired of the saying, "We all have our phone in our hand. It takes 10 seconds." First of all, it's never just one text. Second of all, that requires bandwidth. I could be on social media scrolling and watching dog videos, which I love to do all day and I have 25 text messages. I don't have the bandwidth. I will deal with you later. That's not and that doesn't mean that I'm not interested in you. That doesn't mean I don't like you. But what happens is we go into black and white
thinking. If they do this, it's good. If they do this, it's bad. And what we're trying to do is understand the gray. I think if you're getting anxious because somebody hasn't text you back, we need to look at the state in the story that you're in as opposed to that they're the problem. Because how else are they showing up? Great take. Okay, I like this one. You're always the one starting the conversation. Is that a sign you care more or just different communication styles? That might be a sign that you're not giving them space to step in. I've seen that often. Now, if you give the space and you don't hear from this person, you have your answer right there. You were carrying this along. But often times
I've had plenty of men contact me and say this girl texts me every single morning. I don't even get a chance to reach out to her. Distance creates desire. It's okay to let that go for a day. And if you can't sit still, that's what we need to work on, not the texting etiquette. Someone says they're a bad texter. Does someone's texting behavior actually indicate their interest in you? To a certain extent. I think if we see what where it starts to show is when they come in at a hundred. My mom always says, where else are you going to go? When they come in texting every day, calling you all the time, super communicative, and then you get the crickets and the go Well, then yes,
there is a shift in behavior. Something is up. But intrinsically, instinctually, is their texting behavior an a gauge of their interest? Absolutely not. My partner texts me every other day just to confirm plans. We or a hey, hope you have a great day. Talk to you later. We did not engage. We're three years later, and here we are. I don't need to text him every day cuz we have a beautiful relationship. So, we need to start to look at what else is there. And if all you have is texting, you don't have a relationship. Yeah. My wife never messages me back Does she? till this day. I have to call her. She's a cool person. If I call her, she'll pick up immediately.
Same with Ryan. She's happy to talk. If I text her, I will be waiting for hours and hours. And I'm just aware of that at this point. She's like, yeah, just call me. She goes, I'm I'll be I'll pick up the phone. If I see your name, I'll pick up the phone. But if you're messaging me, she's the same. She's like, and it's so funny. She sent me a screenshot of some conversations she was having the other day. And I said, it's the 733 unread messages from me. Like I was like, I just noticed that at the top and I was cracking up and she was cracking up, but it's just yeah, it's like that's how she likes to go. And she's told me that many times. Now, I like texting because I don't have time
for a call, so I'm the one trying to do that. Same. But then I'm like, but no, she's told me how to get through to her and she does, she picks up every single time I call her, no matter where she is, what time it is, wherever she is, she'll pick up. Yeah. Uh and it's yeah, so I couldn't agree more. Where we have the issue is the story and the narrative that's being created, right? Otherwise, there's no issue, but we've put texting as a dopamine addiction fuel, the same as a slot machine. We are waiting, so dopamine is released in anticipation of, not when you get the reward. That's why waiting for the text, where is it, where is it, where is it? And we're like feening for a fix cuz that's a drug. Versus then
when you get it, you get the serotonin bump, but then you need more because then there's another text and they waited and we start to get hypervigilant. They put 10 seconds, what they put a period, they didn't put a smiley face. We try to decode and at the end of the day we're disconnecting, we're not actually connecting because like you said, pick up the phone and have a conversation. And if the person goes, "What are you talking about? I'm literally on the subway, dude, I couldn't text you." Ha, I created a narrative, that's on me. Versus, "Hey, thanks for calling. Actually, there is something I'd like to talk to you about." And you're like, Okay.
Yeah, but I said something. Yeah, absolutely. And we observe it wrong, like I think sometimes, and I talked about it, by the way, this works with colleagues and teams, too. Sometimes a team's going through an email exchange with someone, and I'm like, "Guys, just pick up the phone and just close it." Like it will I promise you it'll get done so much quicker. Yep. And I've realized that with not just rather with other people on my team where I'm like and I'm like this sometimes, I don't like making big decisions over a text message.
Yeah. Because I feel like it's overcommitting without context. And so I'd rather pick up the phone and say, "Hey, this is These are the three things I'm thinking about. What are you thinking?" Oh, these are the three things I'm thinking. Okay, let's make this decision together. And it feels more real, whereas saying yes or no on a text just feels like high pressure to me because I feel like I'm not giving any context of whether I want to do that or not. Text has no tone. Yeah. We create, so especially in dating, well, if we're going to even talk, you don't know this person. You match with them on an app, you are creating their tonality, you are creating how they say it, what they say, and often times we do
that in how we would do it. So, if someone texts you, you're like, "He asked how my day is." Versus if the guy just sent out an automated text to 30 women that morning, and we create this whole fantasy based on words on a screen, and then we wonder why we're so upset. Yeah. Yeah, that was so good. Definitely. All right, and now I've got some scenario-based questions. Okay. So, if someone says they don't want anything serious, but keep treating you like a partner, what's really going on? That's why I hate actions speak louder than words. That's the epitome that they don't. Because what that person is
saying is, "I told you I don't want a relationship. You're still giving me access, so I'm going to take what I have. You have to tell them that you're not willing to allow that, otherwise they will keep taking it. Why wouldn't they?" Mhm. Well said, I like it. All right. You've been in countless situationships, none lasting longer than a couple months, and have yet to move into a serious committed relationship. What could be happening? You're not using your voice. If you're in countless situationships, and you're acknowledging that you're in situationships, you're not communicating, because what is a situationship? It's a relationship without boundaries, without clear
communication, and without asking for your needs to be met. Start asking for your needs to be met. Start taking up space, and then you'll start to see your relationships change. Okay. Uh you went on a date that felt amazing, everything aligned, they said, "Let's do this again soon." And then silence. What's going on there? It's entirely possible that in the moment, they did like you. And then they went home and went, "Uh actually, That's the worst. you know?" And like, I really to say it as if I haven't done it. I've done that.
I've been out on the date going, "This person's great." Then you go home going, "Wait a minute, did he actually say what I thought he said? Or no, I actually don't really like this." And you just decide, that's why we're dating. And I think what I'm seeing now is really big, is that we want certainty. I need to know that before I've gone out with you that you want to date me, you want to be in a relationship, you want to get married, because we don't trust ourselves. If you trust yourself that no matter what you'll be okay, you'll ask the right questions, you'll vet them properly, and you'll decide if this works for you. That's what we need to focus on.
Got it. Okay, you went on a date with someone who is perfect on paper, but there's zero spark. Is there such a thing as the spark, and should you give it another chance? I would have to argue and say, "What are you looking for?" Because if you're chasing a feeling, you can't be surprised when you don't find it. When you're chasing something that is just momentary, then you're left with a human after. And so, if they're perfect on paper, then I think what we need to look and say is, "What are you actually looking for?" And what is it that Cuz that's a cognitive dissonance. I say I want this, and then these are the people
that I date. There's a disconnect. So, then I would say, "Well, then you're chasing a feeling because the spark, as we spoke about earlier, is usually your nervous system trying to tell you to run and sending blood to your phalanges so you could get out of there." But they're attractive. If you don't have the spark, that doesn't mean it's bad. What I would look at is, "Are you interested in topics that they talk about? Do you like what they have to say? Are you intrigued and interested in their in talking to them?" If that's the answer, doesn't matter about the spark. You don't like the person. And that's the differential.
They keep saying, "I'm just not good at relationships." Should you take that as honesty or a red flag? Both. It is an honest red flag. If somebody is openly telling you, "I'm not good at relationships," my next question would say be, "What does that mean?" And I would say, "No, thank you, because I am." It's It's so interesting as well that I feel like I think we all want to feel safe, but it's also making space for others to feel safe enough to be themselves. Exactly. And a lot of the time I think in the guise of trying to keep ourselves safe, we actually make the other person feel very unsafe. Because we're like, "I don't like it when someone does this. I don't like it when someone does that. I
don't enjoy this. I don't want this." And then that person goes, "Okay, well, I'm not going to do any of those things now because if I tell you that, then you're going to Because you haven't given me the opportunity for us to get to know each other to even deal with that level of space. Does that make sense? It's like I don't even have the space to tell you that I'm struggling with X, Y, and Z because you've just told me that you want someone who's already done the work, who already does therapy, who's healed, who's this. And someone's like, "Well, I was about to tell you that I'm like dealing with the you know, this challenge over here, and I'm in therapy for it or I've been seeking a therapist
or And now they're just scared to tell you and they're like, "Yeah, okay, cool, got it." Oh, I see it all the time of like, I want a healed person, no more unhealed. Who First of all, who is ever healed? I know. That is a journey for life. We If this is it for me, this is boring, right? Like if this is it, if I reached my peak, Me, too, yeah. that's it, right? Like I'd love more. But we have to stop looking at myopically of either healed or unhealed. We're looking for growth-minded, because if somebody is saying, "I want to do the work, I want to invest, I just need help." Great, then we can support each other through that. But if somebody isn't going to at least take accountability and ownership of their
part in the dynamic, then it's a moot point. Yeah. Okay, a few more scenarios. Let's go. You're in the gray area, not officially dating, but not casually, either. How do you have the what are we conversation? You don't ask somebody what it is that you are, you tell them what you want and you see if it aligns. So, if you're in the gray area, you say, "Hey, I'd love to share something with you. I don't know what's happening here. I really like you, I'd love to delete the apps and just focus on you, but I wanted to see how are you feeling about that." Most people won't do that because they're scared of the answer, but if you genuinely want to know, you got to ask.
I love the idea of everything in life of going into it with clearly what you want from it, and then you're so it's so easy to figure out where the other person lands, whereas you're like, "Hey, let's kind of figure out where this is going and what you want." And they're like, "Yeah, well, what are you thinking? Like, I like the way it is right now." And your point is like, "Oh, well, I don't." But then you don't know what to offer and what to say, and then you get stuck and go, "Oh, I like it, too." I'll go with the flow. Yeah, it works for me. It's in every area of life. Yeah, go with the flow is the worst dating advice.
Yes. Where's the flow going? Is there an end game? Like, do we have snacks on the way? Like, where are we going? Because there is no end game, and so I need clarity, not the fluidity. Because when people say that they're going with the flow, what they're really saying is like, "I'm not going to commit." Yeah. Okay. You were dating someone This has happened to too many people I know. You were dating someone who said they weren't ready, and 6 months later, they're in a full relationship with someone else.
How do you stop internalizing that I wasn't enough? Well, that's projection, because what's happening is we're putting our core beliefs. What we have to look and say is maybe they found a partner that was better suited for them. Maybe that person didn't trigger their nervous system. Maybe that person was a safer experience. Maybe you were really like their dad growing up and that just made them and rubbed them the wrong way. Maybe you guys had completely opposing political beliefs. What we have to do is we have to look and say what are the facts? Because if I say I wasn't enough, I'm not good enough, I could all but guarantee if I talked to the other
person, they would say, "Oh, this has nothing to do with that. It's X, Y, and Z." So what I do is what are the facts to back this thought up and if I don't have any, okay, then where did I learn this from? Because if it's my insecurity, that's what's really coming up. It has nothing to do with them. Yeah. Your state story strategy piece applies to all of this because yeah, we start going so even if we look for the facts and most people can't think of facts because the hard part about relationships is that everything's so subjective. So you just go to oh, maybe if I didn't ask for so much. Maybe if I wasn't always needing so much. Maybe if I didn't always then they'd still be here. And what you're really just saying is
I'm not comfortable with what my actual needs are because you asked for them in the past because you believed you deserved them. And now you're questioning whether you deserve them again. And so it's coming from a place of you feeling you don't deserve those things. When the reality is even if you got back with them, you'd still want those things in 3 months time. Nothing changed. Even if you got them back, nothing changed. Nothing changed, but it's really important when we're talking about this. That's why it's like if you're scared to ask for your needs to be met and have this conversation, then what we're
seeing is that person probably doesn't have the bandwidth to begin with. And maybe they do and they just haven't had the conversation with them. But if we're going to look back and say they have something I don't, well then all we're doing is we're projecting our insecurities. So that has nothing to do with the person. It has everything to do with the story that you created about why they didn't want you. The good news is you can control that. All right, last scenario before we do a little rapid fire. So the last scenario is you're dating someone who avoids conflict or shuts down when things get tough. How do you determine whether that's workable or a long-term incompatibility?
It's having the conversation with them of what are they going to do about it. That's the really reality because if somebody is consistently shutting down, they don't have that they're there's the rupture but there's no repair, well, then we have to say and first of all and see do they have take accountability of that? Are they trying to do anything about that or they saying, well, that's who I am and this is it? Because you can absolutely work through that. Maybe they didn't Maybe they learned it in childhood that this confrontation means that they're bad and so they shut down. And maybe that means that So, that means that they need to go to therapy. They need to understand what came up for
them. They have to learn how to be present. I think what we need to learn is we have to look and see if I show up as me, how are they showing up as them and does that work for me? Because for a lot of people, they're used to being abandoned. They're used to having people go, well, you don't do what I want and I'm out. But maybe they're not used to someone that says, well, I'm here by your side and if you're willing to do the work, I'll walk the journey with you. And I think that's a really beautiful place to be in growth and expansion, but two people have to be doing that. And if one person is going to gaslight, deflect, shut down, walk out, do this and go, well, I'm not going to talk about it, I don't know what
you're hoping is going to change. Yeah. It's so interesting how we just forget the word mutual. Like it exists for a reason. It's like all good relationships are mutual. We have mutual understanding, we have mutual respect, awareness. The word mutual makes everything so simple and whenever I'm trying to figure out whether I should invest in a relationship with someone or engage with it or where we stand, it's just whether it's mutual or not. And that over time is much more evident, clearly. It may not be in the beginning for sure, but over time you get really clear on whether there's a mutual level of desire to invest and connect and build. That's why as you do the work your circle gets smaller cuz you start to realize you're here cuz I benefit,
you're here cuz you need something, you're here cuz you're bored, you're here for whatever the reasons are and that's why grief is so large because if I don't grieve the ending of things, then I'm not going to be able to also create new. If we just constantly try to hold on to somebody all of our lives and say, "I'm only okay if I have them." you're never going to actually be able to grow anything else because you're keeping just that plot of land and even if the flowers are dying. I always use the example, if a house burns down, you can't rebuild it with the ashes. You have to be the phoenix that rises and rebuild it with something more solid and more concrete and it's okay to let it
come crashing down. You get to choose. Sabrina, we're going to end with this rapid-fire. So, these have to be answered in one sentence maximum. These are a list of some popular clichés, some of which you've mentioned already, but we'll do them again, some of them. And so, I want your first response and take to these. Okay. Do you believe if you wanted to, he would? God, I hate that saying. It is myopic. It is not understanding human relationships and it is keeping people single longer than they need to be. Want and do are two different parts of the brain. Instead of projecting onto them, because I'll say this, if you
wanted to, you would move on and you're not. So, it takes two. Mhm. Okay. Uh second cliché. So, do you agree with there's no good men out there? That is the salience network at play. And the salience network, if I went outside and looked for a green car, all I'm going to see is that. If you don't believe that there are good men, then I could say there's also not good women or not good they's. There are amazing people, but if you're not finding them, then we need to start to change the state, the story, and the strategy so that you can have different people enter your life and you can allow different people in your life.
Agree or disagree, when you know, you know. I will disagree. [snorts] And the only reason I say that is I think for some people 100% when they know and for other people it's a bit longer of a journey because some people need time to open up and it might take a minute for you to be able to explore that, but I think when you know that you don't want that, please listen to that. When you know that you do, please listen to it, but I don't necessarily think everyone has the same journey. Agree or disagree, once a cheater, always a cheater. Completely disagree. I think people can grow and evolve. I think once a cheater, if you don't take accountability, you will continue to cheat because we need to understand what led you to do that to
begin with. Yeah, and I think so much of that is also you as the individual. Like if you believe that someone's a cheater and will always be a cheater and you can't get over that, then that relationship naturally won't work and you're fully entitled to that because you've been through it and you've been through the pain and the hurt. And so you don't need to lie to yourself. I think that's the problem where that's where that becomes a challenge where you start saying to yourself, that's how I really feel. Like I don't think I'll ever trust this person again, but I think the right thing to do is give them another chance. And then that gets complicated. If you're going to give somebody another chance after they cheated on you, you
have got to make the commitment that you're going to move on. Because it's not fair to hold it over their head. Every time they do something, you don't believe them. You're You're checking their phone. You're seeing where their location is. If you don't have trust in your relationship, and that's okay. If they broke that trust, you don't have to give it back. 100% that is. you're making the choice to stay in the commitment, then please make the choice together that you're staying in the commitment.
Yeah, and I think that's the challenge for that person because you're so conflicted. 100% It's so hard to go through infidelity because you're thinking, well, I do love them and I do believe them and I know who they are. And then at the same time there's this massive you know, lack of loyalty and a breaking of your trust and everything else that comes with it. It's It's It's hard to recommit, but yes, you're right. If you are going to, then go all in. Agree or disagree, men are intimidated by strong women. I will disagree. I think there are some men that are and then there are men like my partner that find strong women to be sexy because he was raised by them. So I think we need to stop keeping it as if
everybody is one thing and start to understand that one person's lived experience is not everybody else's. Mhm. Okay. Couple more. Agree or disagree, if it's not a hell yes, it's a no. Again, I disagree because it's back to it has to be good or this. I'll be honest, it took me 6 months to be a yes with my partner and he was a hell yes month one. It's okay to take time. What I will say is if it doesn't get to a hell yes, then please take it as a no. All right, last one. Agree or disagree, it should feel effortless with the right person.
Wildly disagree. And what I stand is this, it shouldn't be a fight, but what doesn't take work? That's like saying starting a business should be effortless and just flow. You have so many issues. What I want to see is there a flow and are we going somewhere as opposed to it should be effortless. And I think what happens is we lie to people by telling them the relationship should be easy and there should be no issues. Relationships are not easy, they take a lot of work, but they're also rewarding. And I look at it as a bank account. Am I in the green? Great, keep going. If I'm in the red, my needs aren't met, I'm constantly depleted, this isn't going
anywhere, well then that's that's the issue. It's not that it should be easy. Sabrina, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wish I did or anything that you wanted to share that I didn't give you an opportunity to? No, I think you did a pretty dang good job. I think it just at the end of the day for anybody that's listening, the main message here is not that you're never going to find anybody or that you're never going to be happy or it's going to take all of this work, but it's really about when you come back home to yourself, then you can show up differently. And the world needs more light. And we have so many people, everyone's trying to dim somebody else's or turn someone else's on, but I need to
make sure that my light is shining as bright as it can so that I can welcome everybody in so that they also feel seen. And I really hope that people could do that, to step into their power, to know who they are and how amazing they are as a human being and that anybody would be lucky to have the opportunity with them. And if you don't believe that, go back to square one and let's work on where you learned that from. Sabrina, thank you so much for all your insight, wisdom and work and I can't wait to have you back on the show. Thank you, Jay. Likewise.
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